Ok Lynn, I agree with you..............................I really, really agree with you (maybe that's worth and extra TU !!)
When read by the average consumer it reads pretty horrible and makes the whole process seem as if a seller and the agent representing them are out to do nothing but hide everything from a potential buyer.. That these responsibilities create a major cover up for a seller on every transaction single out and if anyone speaks about anything.. the Realtor will g to prison.
I have argued with many, many agents that call themselves â€œexclusive buyer agentsâ€ That supposedly only work with buyers to avoid the big bad dual agency, to have a voice, to be represented only and exclusively for them. What these agents do is use this to â€œbait on a hookâ€ to bring in buyers in to them so they can sell them a house based on the fears and use the written rules of agency to scare them out of their minds.
These agents use this to scare buyers into thinking they will be able to represent them better. When in fact there is absolutely nothing that this so called buyers agent can do differently than the listing agent. Nothing.
The REALITY is, 99.000% of home sellers will probably disclose more to a buyer then the average home inspector will find during a home inspection. 99.999% of home sellers will tell the agent what is wrong with a house and willingly tell the listing agent to disclose what is wrong.. WHY? Because they want to sell their home and move!
So enough of this baloney. I know the rules of agency and I follow them as do 99.999% of the agents I have interacted with.. I explain dual agency to my clients and have not a single one of them has ever had an issue or a wrong thought or a bad thought.. nothing other then.. Great job John.. I am glad we got this transaction done! And you did it yourself!
"John is right, "there is no magic wand," however there is representation which, in my opinion, is always a better way to go."
Dual agency is representation for teh client..
In todays world, if you are a normal person you need to do your due diligence anyway.. hire an inspector or someone to look at the lot.. You can of course ask if the tests were done and you are entitield to see them... there will probably be tests already done in order to present the property for sale.
I have never been told by any seller anything like " O.k.. listen, we have 15 large oil tanks under the house and we are telling you.. but you better not break your fiducuary responsibility and tell anyone about it!
Never.. never, ever heard anyone say anything other then.. I understand dual agency john.. and heck, we HOPE you sell it yourself!
And so what if she knows what you can pay.. the land is going to sell for what it is worth. period. I seriously doubt that the listing agent or the seller is going to make you pay more then you want pay anyway.
Call that agent and tell her you are interested... do your homework and be smart.
Rememeber, there is nothing that a buyers agent can do in this situatiuon to get that house any cheaper for you then any other agent. There is no magic wand that will enlighten a new agent to any of the things mentioned below.. nothing.
As to whether she has any type of claim - ie - "procuring cause", well, that's not a concern of yours. That is something the agents would work out among themselves.
You have to do what works best for you, and makes you happy.
If you do elect to use a new agent, just make sure to let them know what has occurred in the past.
Dual agency is one subject that ignites a lot of controversy and heated discussions online.
You are from MO, and I have absolutely no idea how dual agency is handled in your state.
EVERY state handles it differently. Some states have alternate titles for agents working in that capacity . It is legal in some states - not so in other states.
For example, in NJ - any agent who shows a COMPANY listing is considered to be a dual agent. It doesn't have to be their own listing - theyare bound by dual agency restrictions and rules.
Thus, If I were working with a buyer, and that buyer didn't gvie me permission for work as a dual agent IF the opportunity arises (when showing any company listing) , I couldn't show them a whole lot of listings, as I work for a large company, and the chances are high that along the way we will be faced with seeing other company lisitngs.
All of this is explained in advance to any consumer when we give them a state issued "Consumer Information Statement".
Bottom line - find out what is legal in your state - decide what makes you most comfortable......and good luck with the purchase whatever you decide!
Nope, you can absolutely do that CMA for the buyer in a dual agency situation.
It represents the facts of of the current market. Not hearsay.
Brenda is correct if we are still talking about dual agency. And it is as a direct result of her answer that I am choosing to remove my answers from this thread.
Unfortunately, because of the length of some of our answers, I'm afraid that buyer agency and dual agency and sub agency have become quite convoluted. It is no longer clear as to what we are responding to. And at the risk of confusing you anymore than you already were, I am removing my answers.
As I stated earlier, I think your best bet is to discuss this with a real estate attorney to get the facts as you need them explained. I'm not sure about MO, but in my state there are some attorneys that offer first half hour consultation free. You might want to check in your state to see if there is such a thing offered.
I wish you the best of luck and I still hope you come back to let us know the outcome.
Have a Happy New Year.
99.9% would happen to be my actual numbers in the given category. The 1% was a listing appointment that was going well, and then asked me to not disclose my knowledge of a previous oil tank after they pulled the filling tube from the ground. I did not list the house because of this. As I heard, the house was listed by another company, but given the area the buyers did a oil tank search and the tank was discovered anyway.
Given that hypothetical CMA that was done... mine was done in an ethical manner and presented to the buyer. Yes it was the same one given to the seller when we listed the hypothetical house. ( as I would do in a real situation) but the seller thinks he lives in the Taj Mahal with many, many upgrades and feels his house is worth at least $460k. Sorry buyers agent. The 425k price ain't gonna work for you... But I will use this offer to pursue a reduction in the list price and discuss the declined offer price with my client to bring them to reality.
I personally would not be in this situation. My listings know that there is a possibility of me acting as a dual agent if the situation arises and they understand the position in detail and act accordingly with regards to me disclosing information -or- the seller themselves disclose the information.
Try to Remember the point of all of this is to sell the house.. not hold onto it and fight with agency relationships. Agency relationships are great rules to be followed on how an agent has to act, when it comes down to it most sellers in the real world will allow any and all negotiation, disclosure and conversation about the house and property to sell the property.
A CMA is a factual document that compares listings that are sold, active and expired and can be given to that buyer. these are public figures and available to anyone who looks for them. -or- Did you doctor that CMA to look like it is a $425,00 house and not use ALL of the infoprmation in the area to create a CMA that works i your advantage.. that would be unethical. But the actual facts of the sold comps are public knowledge.
So tell me.. ( and I have been here) you now have your $425,000- CMA and you have all your ducks in line.. and go in blazing.. and the listing agent says, thanks, we want $459,000 to make this deal work. No O.k.. Have a good day. You call the next day and state that you are very, very insistant on advocating your stance on this $425,000 sales price.
At what point did you put you cape on, place him in a leg lock around his neck.. and get him to accept your $425,000 ? When do your exclusive buyer agent powers kick in? What are you now doing different then anyone else? You have been stone walled and the seller wants $459,000. Period, a $49,000 reduction from the list price to make the deal? Take care, bye-bye exclusive buyers agent. There is nothing you can do.
Dual Agency Dos and Don'ts
Because disclosed dual agency is not a concept that consumers, and in some cases salespeople, understand well, spend time educating them on its benefits and limitations if you choose to offer this representation option. Also, make sure dual agency is legal in your state. Here are some more pointers:
Disclose all material facts about the property.
Treat the buyer and seller honestly.
Provide information about the property and neighborhood within U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development guidelines.
Convey all of the buyer's questions to the seller and get answers in writing.
Disclose the buyer's ability to buy and the seller's ability to sell.
Explain real estate terms and procedures.
Explain closing costs and procedures.
Help the buyer obtain financing.
Help the buyer arrange for property inspections.
Assist in the standard purchase agreement.
Work diligently to complete the sale after the purchase agreement is accepted.
Work to the detriment of either party.
Discuss the motivation of either party.
Disclose the price the seller will accept or the price the buyer will pay.
Disclose terms other than those in the agreements.
Say anything that would hinder the bargaining position of either party.
I know that John means well, but in realtity, the listing agent cannot (legally or ethically) give you information about the seller nor give the seller information about you that would be detrimental to either of you. Your prior agency relationship with the listing agent does not end with her listing the lot. She is bound to the agreement that she had with you. That is why she will need to work as a DUAL agent. As far as getting the lot cheaper, who knows? The seller might be going through a divorce, lost their job or be in financial difficulty, which is something that the listing agent can not tell you unless she is authorized to. Fiduciary responsibility does not cover up known defects. Those should always be disclosed. Additionally, a buyers' agent incurs more legal responsibility in the transaction than does the listing agent. A listing agent may, to some degree, rely on information provided by their client. It is, however, the buyers' agents' duty to verify all that is presented by the listing agent. John is right, "there is no magic wand," however there is representation which, in my opinion, is always a better way to go.
GOOD LUCK.. great question
Lynn911 Dallas Realtor & Consultant, Loan Officer, Credit Repair Advisor
The Michael Group - Dallas Business Journal Top Ranked Realtors
1. Ask the agent if she has permission from the seller to be a "Dual Agent." A Dual Agent is limited being a mediator for the seller and buyer.
2. Do you feel that this agent did a good job for you when you purchased your home?
3. If the answer to the above is "Yes", then you should ask yourself if you have enough knowledge about the current market conditions to work with a Realtor who can only function as a mediator for you.
Did you sign a contract with her?
Procurring Cause is an ethics issues that Realtors, as members of the National Association of Realtors (NAR) hold as a rule to abide by. Procurring Cause basically states that if we as a Realtor (Member of NAR, not just a real estate agent) show someone a property and have a constant and continuous relationship in regards to both you and the property and the customer goes out and finds another agent to then do the paperwork and purchase the property, that we MAY be entitled to a portion of the sales proceeds. This does NOT affect you as the customer, it only affects us on the Realtor closing/Commission end of things and is typically a behind the scenes battle for what we as Realtors may feel has been a blatant disregard for this ethics rule. To have had a year in between the agent showing you the property and then you wanting to buy the property does not, in my own personal opinion, constitute any regard for that agent to lay claim to the Procurring Cause Ethics Standard.
With that being said, on a human note, I might end up with my nose out of joint if you and I had a great relationship on the other deal and then you don't come back to me for something that I showed you. I might be frustrated and not understand why you wouldn't come back to me.
I would highly suggest that you be open and up front with the agent about the fact that you are interested in buying the property but that you feel the need to choose another agent. This may be an uncomfortable thing to say, but in the longrun it may help avoid not only hurt feelings, but a negative human response of them making sure that your deal doesn't happen and they sell it to someone else instead.
We as Realtors should not do so, but sometimes anger and hurt makes the world a bit foggy and if that person's Zoloft prescription wasn't working that day you may lose a desired piece of property because of it.
Good luck on your purchase.
There are two things you need to consider in your situation. First, as a buyer you are not obligated to work with an agent merely because she showed you the property a year or two ago that you are now considering buying.
Second, if you decide to work with another agent the fact that you discussed price opinions and financial circumstances with the agent have no bearing on your offer for that property today. The market has changed and your financial situation may well have been altered as well--the agent would have no way of knowing your current position.
The decision as to whom to work with is up to you. But when you find a great person who does her/his job well, it usually is a great benefit to you to call upon that person again; not to mention that the compliment she receives
by your doing so will likely assure you will receive superior service.
Best of luck,
Rachel LaMar, J.D.
LaMar Real Estate, Inc.
If they work as transaction agents then they cannot share your information and pricing thoughts with the owner and they cannot share the owners thoughts with you. Things can get cloudy at times if you are working with someone who does not hold to the highest of standards and ethics but it sounds like this agent met your needs last time and can probably make the deal happen without any issues arising.
You would not be disadvantaged in myopinion by working with her. An agent who has both sides of the deal can work with the knowledge she has to present to the seller any questions and concerns you have and it allows her to formulate the deal in a manner that it can be clsed quickly and easily. If you have concerns and want to have an answeer from the seller, you may not get that answer if it is another agent doing the asking, but a Seller's agent may have a better advantage to get those answers.
As for pricing, pricing from 2009 is out the door and so different from 2011. Zillow can help get you a general comparison although I have found that it is not terribly accurate in some situations.
Good luck wth your purchase and let us know what happened. And if you want to move to Florida we have some phenomenal deals down here right now and warm weather too! :)
Having your own agent doesn't cost you anything. Get a really good buyer agent and have that person work for you to get the best price and best terms you can get on the lot. She already knows what you think abou tthe lot and about how much you think it's work (based on 2009), but those thoughts may have changed at this point. It's your call and your comfort level so you'll have to chose what makes you most comfortable.
I'm afraid John made a comment much earlier that really got my ire up and we took off from there. Unfortunately, as we were bantering back and forth here, I'm afraid things got out of control and while I was no longer referring to the original question, but rather John's comment on buyer agency, I'm afraid things were getting confusing. This was evidenced by Sally's last comment.
So.........I took the liberty of removing my answers.
Best of luck to you Sally,
Unwavering Commitment to Service
What a dual agent cannot do is INTERPRET that cma for the buyer. They cannot say: "Based on those numbers, I think the house is only worth xxxx". They cannot say: "Gee, that house is really overpriced, I think you shoudl offer xxxxx"........etc
The consumer will have to draw their own conclusion, based on the facts provided, but the dual agent is absolutely within their fiduciary responsibility by providing the comparable sales, even if they don't indicate the list price is the correct list price.
You have a lot of conflicting advice here. The truth is that the listing agent cannot show you comparable sales on the property in question unless they show that the property is worth what the seller is asking. She cannot suggest a price or give you any advice or give the seller advice without risking violating her agency agreement with both you and the seller. You are on your own as is the seller as far as representation is concerned under a dual agency situation.
The value of the land a year and a half ago, is not necessarily the value of the land now, so any comps done then, are not the current comps. If you have her provide comps without a buyers agency signed then she is providing seller slanted comps, not buyer slanted comps. As a dual agent, she would be providing comps but would not be able to advise you on negotiating strategies since she would be negotiating against herself, she would only be able to provide you with raw numbers and data that you would have to interpret yourself.
I have been a dual agent in that area. It can be done successfully, but both the buyer, the seller and the agent have to agree. let me know if I can provide any further assistance since I'm local
There are some caveats here. The listing agent now has to work as a DUAL agent. She knows confidential information about both the seller and the buyer. She cannot disclose any information that she has that might be detrimental to you to the seller (ethically and legally) and she cannot disclose information that she has about the seller to you that might be detrimental to the seller. With DUAL agency,neither party is being truly represented. A lot can change in a year and there may be some changes or situations with that lot that you might not know about. EX. Plans for a new road or road widening. Does it perc? The exact size of the lot. Has the seller made a change to it since you last saw it? Have the real estate taxes changed? Have any hazardous materials been stored on the site? Is there a change in land use at the county/municipality? Is it in a fly zone? Can you use it for single family, mulit-family, commercial, office, etc.. It is the buyer's agent's duty to make sure that you are completely informed about your purchase before you make it. You may want to make absolutely sure that you are getting the complete picture. It doesn't cost you any more and the listing agent will be paid on the listing side anyway. Of course this information is predicated on the assumption the MO is a disclosure state and that the same laws apply as they do in VA. In any case, I would opt for a buyer's agent in this situation.
I agree with Lynn. I would normally recommend getting another agent but you are familiar with her and it seems like she provided you good services in the past, use her. She also already knows your situation if you bring on another agent or not. She would see the name on the offer.
Best of luck,