S

That's funny I bought in 1984 as well - and yes, paid a huge mortgage rate - perhaps even more than 14% . I never thought of it as a great buying opportunity but now that I look back I guess it was. However, we have been buying since the early 1950s, even before that if you want to count my parents - mostly in Ca - so there have been even better times. We are getting ready to now put together another purchase - one motivation is that interest rates are so low in money market accts etc that putting the cash in the house is not such a bad idea - and it is not taxed - eventually the properties will go up - we are looking long term here - buying for twenty somethings so they have years to let it grow. I think though we might now look at foreclosures (at least the ones that are not trashed) and be patient and just see how low the prices will go. Haven't selected an agent yet for this one, but whoever it is will have to be patient along with us. Glad to know there are ones out there that are good at foreclosures. - Mon May 5 2008, 18:24

We just bought - closed last month. It was for a family member so think of me as the silent partner. It was very difficult to find a decent property - foreclosed and short sales are not that desirable, to say the least. Interest rates were a motivation - we got an extremely low rate 4.85 and have a great loan broker. We used a regular agent - not happy - I found more listings and properties using various internet resources than the agents (it was a team) found for us. We lost out on several properties - yes actually some bidding wars in 2008! The agents kept telling us what we could not do - they went overboard to keep the seller happy, in retrospect I think they just did everything possible to finalize a sale, not really caring if it benefited us, they buyer. The property we bought has probably already declined in value but we are still happy . If I had it to do over I would have been more patient and more agressive with negotiating the price. There is no reason to pay today's price - pay what you think it will be in six months. - Mon May 5 2008, 16:45

to all - just so there is no confusion with poster MS-l in Miami and myself ( I am "S") I have never purchased a car from a dealership. Not that there is anything wrong with it, just don't want to be confused with another poster.

Trulia - could you please verify for those on this question that we are 2 separate people? There are some that think we are one - or that get us mixed up. I am happy to change my name to something else if that will help. - Mon May 5 2008, 16:05

I have another question - low ball offers could result in low prices - and perhaps there are other situations besides mine where the seller has to add money (fyi - we didn't make a low ball offer but just want to relate to the topic). In our situation we trusted that the seller would add the money - and he did - but now that I look back shouldn't there have been something in the offer showing proof of funds, similar to what the buyer has to do to show they have the down payment and the loan? I would have hated to get to the end only to find there was a shortfall - I guess it wouldn't have closed and we could have bought something else but I bet there would have been a lot of unhappy folks out there that wouldn't get paid. Anyone have a form or language for this situation - I will definitely need it for the next transaction where there is a big loan on the property. If nothing else I would want to make sure that if the seller wasn't able to come up with funds to close that we were reimbursed for our inspection and other fees. Again, thanks in advance for the answers. - Mon May 5 2008, 10:58

Jed - you are correct - but in this instance the equity didn't disappear - the seller took it out for use for other items - and in this case it was the last 20K that went to pay the fees - if there were no fees that money would not have been necessary - but my point is that it is not always the buyers money that covers various parts of the transaction - the buyers money pays the sales price - what the seller does with it is up to them and the various contracts that they have signed. I would guess short sale would be the same thing but would be curious as to how that works since I have never done one. The buyers money goes to the bank? And the bank pays for everything? Even if there is not enough from the purchase price to cover all? What happens then - the bank takes the money from their own reserves? When a short sale is negotiated do the banks negotiate fees too? Thanks in advance for the advise. - Mon May 5 2008, 10:44

on correction for Jed's comment

"The brokerage fees are paid out of the seller’s proceeds and they are paid using the money the buyer brings to the table."

This is not always the case we recently purchased a house where the seller had to bring money to the table as the loans on the property were more than the asking price - this was not a short sale - just a seller that wanted out - he came in with $20K which was used to make up the difference - and of course to pay the brokers commissions. But before you start feeling sorry for this seller, please know that the seller is a real estate broker himself - bought the house 2 years ago - took out $150K + when times were good and now that he no longer has enough income - had to bail out before things got worse (the 20K came from his parents). He did not represent himself in the transaction but that was because of a company policy of the real estate company he works for. - Mon May 5 2008, 08:08

I do not have the same IP address as MS-l I have reported everyone that has confused us to Trulia so that they can figure this out. - Mon May 5 2008, 07:23

JR - I think you are mixing me up with another user _ I never asked you if you did pro bono work that was MS-l My user name is just S

and this response " asked if I thought that made me a hero worthy of worship by others. " was not from me either

I am not in Florida as user MS-l is I am in Ca zip code 91311 and my user ID is S - Sun May 4 2008, 15:16

JR - buyers and sellers use real estate agents for different reasons - some use them to find the listed properties but others can and enjoy doing this on their own and use the agent for other tasks - my point is that buyers and sellers are not dumb - we are capable of doing everything an agent can do IF we want to - agents have no special magic, even the multiple listings are now public information - but sometimes in life we prefer to pay others for those tasks that we don't enjoy or don't want to do - but that does not make the buyers and sellers out there incompetent or ignorant. - Sun May 4 2008, 13:32

There are many professionals that don't require a retainer - do you have any idea how many fees are reduced or completely written off in these professions? And there are many in sales that only receive commission, or not, after lots of hard word - this is not unique to those in real estate sales. What does set those in real estate sales apart is how dumb many feel that buyers and sellers are. Those in real estate feel they are superior. There are buyers that know how to negotiate and are very good at it. There are buyers and sellers that are intelligent and read and study. I'm sure the reasons to use a real estate professional are different for everyone - some may not want to hassle with all of the paperwork and negotiating, some may want the realtor to screen the properties, some may want the realtor to take care of all of the details of setting up inspections etc but that does not mean that the buyers and sellers out there are incompetent. There is more and more we can do on our own - Trulia is a perfect example - anyone can now easily find listed properties. Quit insulting us or you will push us away for good. - Sun May 4 2008, 13:12

I only have 2 comments for Jed Lane -

perhaps proof your own posts

"Over the years in my previous carriers I would negotiate " previous carriers?

and

"how unique we are in that we do everything before we get paid. No other group or profession does that"

Attorneys, CPAs and many others do work every day and then bill the client - in hopes that the client will pay. The work is all done before they get paid. And of course commissioned sales people (not just real estate sales people) do lots of work ahead of time in hopes that they will close a deal and get paid. - Sun May 4 2008, 12:38

JR- I think you misunderstood my comment. If a seller wants to use the agent they are paying to do the negotiating then fine - but why can't a buyer speak directly to the sellers agent? I in no way meant to imply that a buyer that is a good negotiator should only deal with a fsbo. My point is that buyers are not as dumb as some might think we are - and sellers aren't either, but I agree, if as a seller we are going to pay the big bucks in the commission then sure why not - let the agent do the work. And yes I have been a buyer and seller probably more times than most on this list - personal buyer and seller that is - with my dollars - not as an agent representing someone elses sale or purchase. And I think it is time for change - dare to challenge and bend the rules that agents have been trying to convince us that cannot be changed. If you like the rules then fine - go with them - but I think it is time that agents stop telling us what we can and cannot do. - Wed Apr 30 2008, 17:13

To Deborah - very good comments but you make it sound as though only an agent has negotiating skills. Agents service a purpose in the knowledge they have about real estate but there are many sophisticated buyers out there and many that can out negotiate the best of them. However, it is rare that a buyer can negotiate on their own - agents won't even let them near the seller or the seller's agent. Why does it have to be this way?

It is time for buyers to take the lead - if you must buy then go ahead and find the best house at the best price but buyers as a group can change the market place and the values - just as buyers drove up the prices, if we stop buying, the prices will come down. No need to lowball - just be patient. The sellers can't sell without us. The agents will push hard since they need sales commissions to survive but they will need to dip into the savings they have from those 1.5 mil sales or reinvent themselves and find something else to do until we start buying again.

To Ms-1 - your posts are the best - you are a realist. thank you - Wed Apr 30 2008, 15:12

"If a buyer looks at 40 properties before they find one they like, their negotiating power is less than the buyer who would find a list of 30 different homes acceptable"

I don't understand how your negotiating power is less if you look at more properties. If you have the cash, the loan, etc don't you have the power? How would the seller of the home you put an offer on today know how many you have already tried for? I think April has the right idea - offer what you think is fair - and just keep trying until you get one. There are so many houses to pick from, with new ones coming on the market every day - that it is really not that hard , in a big city at least, to find one that will work. - Wed Apr 30 2008, 08:03

I do not wish agents to give selective advise. They should just do what is right when someone comes to them. It sounds like JR is trying to do the right thing. Here in Ca agents are still pushing themselves on sellers to list - I still get solicitations in the mail every week - "I can sell your home for top dollar etc etc" and they are pushing the buyers to pay more than they should - telling us "better buy now, prices will only be up next week" or "better increase your bid or you won't get this house and there may not be another house" - agents are playing both sides of the fence and hoping that we are all too naive to catch on. But all this aside - the point is buyers can change the market - buyers created the frenzy that drove up the prices so let's fix it and just stop buying until they go back down where they should be. - Tue Apr 29 2008, 19:18

Might be time for buyers to band together - don't make an offer unless it is low - without buyers there will be no sellers. If you must buy or just have to have a particular house go ahead and make the offer but get what you can in other concessions. There is no law that says you can't add to the standard real estate forms that are used. You can cross out, change info, add addendums, whatever you want - it is your offer. There may be a few items dictated by law that you must follow but for the most part everything is negotiable. Realtors don't like, they want a clean, fast, simple sale, but it is not their money. I still find it hard to believe that a realtor actually told us that "no, you cannot offer 20% less", and "no, you cannot change the time requriements on the form", and "no, you cannot make multiple offers". We as buyers need to be more in control. We have the power, let's use it to bring down the prices and get the deals we want. - Tue Apr 29 2008, 15:12

What a great article, thank you Yev. I love the reference to the Walmat Stimulas rebate. Did you know that Walmart stock has gone up 12 % since this was announced? Hope you all bought some. A much better investment than housing at this stage of the game. - Sat Apr 26 2008, 20:04

Not sure about the rest of the country but here is the info on real estate agents in CA - just think if every one of them bought a property this year - sales would soar!

from 2007
"An interesting phenomemon is occuring in California. With sales slowing and the market soft, you would expect the numbers to start to shrink. From roughly 495,000 licensees (brokers and agents), or 1 in 52 adults in the state, the number is now exclipsing 532,000. (At the end of January 2008, the state had 548,879 agents )
Meaning that 1 out of every 50 adults in California is a licensed real estate agent. " - Mon Apr 7 2008, 14:28

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet - if it is such a hot market why aren't all of the realtors on this thread out there buying something? Either a first time purchase or moving up. Are all happy with where you are at? According to most of the realtors this is the time to buy - so put your money where your mouth is. Let's hear your stories. When is the last time you bought? Of course, I realize it could be tough now - some lenders, WAMU is one, will now not loan to anyone in the real estate industry. - Mon Apr 7 2008, 14:07

I'm sure those that collect the 4K sneakers already own a house, perhaps several. They're not going to sell and buy just to keep the real estate agents in business. If your house is your home and you are happy why would you want to move? It is not so much that buyers are dragging their feet, there are just less of them out there. The baby boom years are gone. - Mon Apr 7 2008, 09:10

to Lucas, if you are a first time buyer you may qualify for the state program that allows you a low or no down payment and you can get a great loan/rate - try the best loan broker out there, marc medina - he knows all about the state program too

and to all - just learned today that some lenders - wamu is one, now no longer will lend to anyone in the real estate industry - so to you brokers, agents, escrow people out there - hope you are not looking to get a loan - the lenders don't have much faith in you at this point - Thu Mar 27 2008, 12:47

I agree with Yev and JR - Dot is getting lots of offers because there are fewer listings. What few buyers are out there are all going for the same few good deals. And oh yes, the liar loans, as we call them here - no more of those.

401 k though is doing fine, stock market is up 400 points, plus we are very diversified - don't want all your eggs in one basket now - Wed Mar 19 2008, 19:04

Thank goodness for Yev - he is well read, appears very educated and is a realist! A property may have 14 offers but when all is done it will still only be one sale. For there to be booming sales you would need 13 more properties at a low price for those other 13 buyers to create a sale. - Wed Mar 19 2008, 18:01

I am not really rooting for an overcorrection, just interested in following the trends - not sure how many cycles you have seen but we have seen many in Ca since the 1940s. No Hollywood is a pretty small area but I bet the same numbers will be found in other areas too. We are in different times now and there just aren't as many buyers as there used to be. The baby boomers are done and there are are not as many in the new generation to buy up the properties. So to answer Jordan's original post - it is not so much that buyers are dragging, there are just not as many of them anymore. - Tue Mar 18 2008, 22:18

I would be interested in the numbers as well. The Sunday Daily News Business section lists recent closings and a year ago it would fill more than one page. Now, barely 1/2 a page is needed. Each week it is a smaller and smaller list. And most of what is on that page, which would be the closed sales, are the low end homes and condos and areas, such as Lancaster. I believe they also report total number of listings. Brokers - this should be easy data for you to put your hands on - please share. This would be much more useful to us than letting us know about the many lookie loos coming through the properties. - Tue Mar 18 2008, 17:45

For those willing to put in the effort on a foreclosure here is a link where you can go direct

http://countrywide-foreclosures.blogspot.com/

you'll also find links to other lenders foreclosures - you'll be surprised how many there are. And why not go direct - who needs a realtor when these are so consumer unfriendly to begin with - the realtor won't be able to get you the inspection or waive the prequal - as mentioned on this list, the lenders are tough - direct contacts are included on the link - and the savings are wonderful - Sat Mar 8 2008, 09:57

Well I am certainly glad to hear that none in this group are shying away from showing those buyers that do want to see them and take on the challenge of short sales and foreclosures. My hat is off to all of you - I wish more were like you. A buyer should be exposed to everything out there - if that is their choice - Fri Mar 7 2008, 18:45

a note to JR - our realtor will be receiving full commission on the property we are buying (if it goes through - last one failed inspection - really it should not even have been listed!) - it may be the total sum of her income for this year but that cannot be my concern - we did not ask her to take a cut and of course she did not offer - we have found though brokers willing to lose a deal over a few thousand rather than throw it in themselves - whatever happened to team effort? - Tue Mar 4 2008, 18:07

Sylvia, that is very nice that your sellers are able to keep their properties for rentals, most when they move up need the cash for the new downpayment. I guess I am thinking more of young families that have been a house for 5 years or so and are ready to move up to take advantage of this wonderful buyers market. But it does sound like to lucky new homeowners will now have a property

As to the person with all of the insight on the high rates, I guess that could happen but if you have a good loan broker you will still find a good rate. And don't forget the tax savings when you have a mortgage. And isn't it wonderful that the downpayment is in the house and not in something else that one has to pay tax on? Years from now it can be pulled out and rolled over - no tax. But don't get me started on property taxes - I would rather pay the seller more under the table than have it be part of the purchase price.

And let's see as to the broker who feels he earns his commission - watch out for the real estate lawyers - things are slowing down in the law firms and they will be looking for something to do - buyers can find the properties themselves on the internet - and per your suggestion might have to find the listings as well, but the attorneys can process the paperwork and forms - they charge by the hour, not by a percentage of the sale. The attorneys don't want to go door to door showing homes but they love to push paper and close deals - Tue Mar 4 2008, 17:56

Well now, that is pretty mean. . As mentioned we are not looking for someone to give away their house, in fact my daughter has purchased one. But if you want more buyers like her - qualified, good down, ready to pay a fair price, you are going to have to get some better listings. And although I could send out letters and knock on doors, why would I want to do that when there are realtors. Exactly what do you do for your commission - it doesn't sound like you are trying to find any good properties. Do you expect the buyer to find the property now too? Oh by the way, the house she did buy is from a realtor - he used it as an atm for the last few years and of course now has no income so he is selling at a loss - but even then he refused to be realistic about the price - but we are tired of the whole thing so we paid the extra. It won't make that much difference in the long run - rates are low. - Tue Mar 4 2008, 15:22

I have to disagree about sellers waiting it out and not wanting to sell now. If they are looking to move up this is the perfect time. They may take a loss on their home but percentage wise they will make it up in the long run if they are moving to something larger and more expensive - since that seller will also be taking a loss. Sounds like a pyramid but there are plenty out there that can take the loss since they have the equity. I am back to realtors but they are the ones really holding sales down - they discourage listing low, they discourage making a low ball offer - they want to keep things as high as possible and sales as close to 100% of price as possible. I welcome the foreclosures. The banks will not care - they will take what they can get eventually as they don't want to be landlords or homeowners. They will force the prices down. In the meantime, realtors should get their buyer the best loan possible - we have never seen anything like these interest rates for years! Mark Medina in Woodland Hills is the best broker out there - bar none - and no, no affiliation to me. - Tue Mar 4 2008, 14:31

In our case the extra low interest rate helped in buying a house now rather than waiting for the further drops, which I also think will be coming based on all of the foreclosures in the pipeline. I still think there are plenty of buyers out there, and they have to live somewhere, so if you get a good loan you can afford to buy now rather than rent. btw, our realtor had no clue about good financing, luckily we have an excellent loan broker that we used in the past. He has a loan to fit every need - in our case 4.85 fixed - this allowed us to overpay a bit on the house and get it now - - Tue Mar 4 2008, 11:33

Realtors, have you thought about going out and getting listings? All realtors seem more than happy to show the existing properties and work with buyers but I am not seeing any that will look for new listings. In our case we are looking for a Valley Park or Sunkist home in the West Valley - there were almost 5,000 of these built - there is no shortage. I would imagine there are owners that might like to move up to a larger house if they had a buyer - realtors - get out and find these people! If there are more of these starter homes available at a reasonable price (we are not looking for rock bottom here) they will sell - perhaps cut your commission a bit to make it work - and then they will buy - if the new buyers have nothing to pick from there will be no movement - there are lots of first time buyers out there - they are what will get sales going - Tue Mar 4 2008, 08:21

I am sorry buy you are way off base. We already have purchased another home - a better one at a better price. In fact we are so happy that I feel bad for the person that got the foundation problem house. It sounds like you are the type of person that if you see something that is wrong you just turn your head and let those effected figure it out on their own - if you knew a car had serious problems and it was being sold of course you wouldn't have to tell anyone but don't you think it would be the right thing to do? And of course a buyer would have their own inspection- - auto, car whatever - but don't you think it would be nice to share? Where is your humanity? Inspectors cannot share their reports and even the agents cannot legally use someone elses report but I own this one and as a good person I think the new buyer should have it before it gets to be too late. I would only hope that if anyone had such info about my house that they would share it with me - Sat Apr 19 2008, 07:57

I have to say I am surprised at the responses I would think all would want me to disclose it seems as though you are protecting the realtors but no harm I will contact the new buyer tomorrow - and I certainly hope all do the same thing , if I were a buyer I would want to know - Fri Apr 18 2008, 23:33

well you are right I don't know if was disclosed but just to be on the safe side shouldn't I send it to the buyer ? If you were a buyer wouldn't you want to know? I think I had best send it , if they already know then no harm done, and if they don't then they might be able to stem the damage. Just moving on is the easy way out but I just cant sleep at night not knowing if they buyer knows of this or not . It was legitimate inspection report not just a rumor and all should know . I will send it to the new owner tomorrow - Fri Apr 18 2008, 23:30

that is good to know - and yes the seller did get a copy of the report - but how do i know if the disclosure was made? would you send the report to the new buyer just in case? perhaps the seller and realtor just decided not to reveal it in hopes that no one would discover it - Fri Apr 18 2008, 20:24

ok now i have a question - we didn't buy the first house because of foundation problems found in the inspection - i see now that the house has sold - do you think the seller disclosed this to the new buyer - do they have to? should I send the new buyer my report so that they have this info - i know they already have the house but they may have some recourse if it was not disclosed and they find out when it starts raining again - what would you do? - Fri Apr 18 2008, 18:52

We paid $395 for 1570 sq feet 4 bedroom in west hills no pool - that would add - the first house inspected found foundation problems and we pulled out - 2d house was much better and the deal went through - we had him inspect this one too - he told me later that some call him the deal breaker - but wouldn't you rather know before you buy? let me know if you want the name of the person we used he is the most excellent person I have ever come across - I don't think the average inspector would have found the foundation problem that he did in the first house - - Fri Apr 18 2008, 18:20

You do what you have to do to make the deal go through - in my self owned business I have often thrown in extra to close a deal. In my employer relationship I have often given up a bonus or not had a salary increase (as others in the company have done during the down times. If the company went under where would we be then?. And of course brokers don't really have to give up their commission, the buyers agent, who is the experienced one in negotiating, just really needs to push the seller to get real. But what I have found is that the agent would rather take the easy way out and have the buyer come up with more or give in. Maybe in this instance the sale just won't happen - why should a buyer take a property for more than the appraisal? And if the seller won't budge then maybe they need to wait to sell until the market turns around. Of course if that happens there will be no commission for anyone - something might be better than nothing. By the way - why did you leave corporate america? - Wed Mar 19 2008, 08:51

Be strong. The seller doesn't want to start over - it will probably appraise for less next time around. Call the bluff. And the real estate agents can always through in some of their commission to close the deal if that's what it takes. There is no reason why the buyer always has to give in. That is why there is an appraisal contingency. - Tue Mar 18 2008, 21:03