Firenze@Sorrento

Hi Fizzy,

I hope you are doing well too. Someone recently got their deposit money from Toll Brothers after their loan fell through. Toll was initially reluctant to let the buyer go, but after the buyer raised hell both in person and online (here and on the Around Dublin Blog), Toll relented. I do NOT know if that buyer had the Cecina, but the timing seems too coincidental.

I hope you are getting ready to settle in. There are a few things you need to know going forward:

1. Toll Brothers is watching Trulia very closely;

2. If I were Toll Brothers, I would definitely raise the prices slightly right now to discourage anyone from negotiating the prices down before closing. Remember, what's happening in the Dublin market does not support their current optimistic pricing. One of the quick delivery Positano single-family homes is actually lower in price than a Firenze townhome right now;

3. Get in touch with Gregory Shreeve at City Hall, if you want to learn what to look out for during your walkthrough and how to be a responsible home owner in general. You don't even need to set up an appointment. Just go to City Hall and walk into his office. I guarantee you he will welcome you with open arms. His passion in life is to protect our life, limb, and liability. If I have to do it all over again, I would have consulted him before I closed on my unit. He will give you a good checklist that itemizes what are your responsibilities as a new home owner. You can use that checklist during your walkthrough to figure out exactly what are included in this coming year's fit-and-finish warranty;

4. Depending on which side of the building you're in, your garage may get unbearably hot based on what I hear from my Cecina neighbors. When I asked Gregory about that, his answer was very simple -- concrete is not a good insulator. If your unit happens to be next to the utility closet, you should be okay. Definitely bring this issue up with Steve and Ray and ask if they have any ideas to help with mitigating the heat.

Again, I hope you are excited about moving into your new home. You will love it here.

Good luck. - Fri Oct 31 2008, 10:15

Hi Fizzy,
First, visit Sorrento and get all the Cecina addresses yourself. There should only be four so far. After that, I would go to the County Assessor website and plug those addresses in. You should also call up the Assessor's Office and talk to one of their assessors. The one who works on the Sorrento area is Josephine Tan. I would ask them what you should do if and when your home values drop significantly AFTER you close. For example, although my unit's value has dropped significantly, my decline in market value application was denied this year due to the date I closed. Please note that Toll Brothers has raised the prices of the preconstruction Cecinas very slightly (check their website); however, given all the recent events on Wall Street and the fact that banks have REALLY tightened their lending standards, I don't know if these optimistic prices will hold for long. Finally, I should remind you to stay calm and even-tempered throughout this whole process. Do NOT behave like our Congressmen and Congresswomen with respect to the financial bailout and react to hastily. You have time, so as long as you do your research, stand firm, and make a reasonable offer, you will be able to get the best possible deal for yourself at the time you close. Also, have you tried to get Toll to commit to give you a price guarantee that will last until BUILT-OUT, not until closing. It may be time to ask again, if you haven't been able to secure that. - Mon Oct 6 2008, 12:10

Hi Fizzy,
Good to hear from you! I understand your nervousness. I did NOT hire an independent appraiser, but you are wise to consider one. I will have to defer to an agent and other users on recommendations, but I will say that you should keep a close eye on the comps in the area and see if the price per square foot you will pay continues to be reasonable. That was what I did before I closed. $30K of option money really is the minimum Toll Brothers should give you, especially if you consider the markup associated with each upgrade. Toll Brothers, for example, charged $15 per foot for my crown molding, but I know Moulding Masters in Dublin can do the same work (if not better) for $11 per foot. When you negotiate with Gregg and Steve, do not overlook the upgrade costs. Also, as close as Cecina is to a single family home, it is still a townhouse, so you should keep that in mind when you do your dollar per square foot calculation. Toll Brothers is not in the business to make money off people's deposit, so even if you were to walk away (I hope you won't though!), there are ways to get your money back, especially if you were to buy from another production home builder. I had a friend who was all set to buy at Elan but decided at last minute to buy in Trevi, and this person was able to get 100% of the deposits back from DR Horton. Again, as long as you have not closed, there is always room for negotiation. It is the buyer's market, and if you think you're paying too much, you should not be afraid to raise your concerns with Gregg and Steve. They will of course do their best to convince you otherwise through traditional sales tactics. Good luck. - Wed Oct 1 2008, 15:18

Hi Fizzy,
Please never apologize for sounding naive. For any home buyer, the only dumb questions are the ones you did NOT ask. Don't forget that. Prepaid assessment is basically another way of saying that the builder has prepaid the HOA fees for the home owner. In the case of Sorrento Firenze, they have agreed to pay for the quick delivery Cecina buyer the master and the Firenze HOA for a given amount of time. The usual length of time is one year, but in this market, you are certainly within reason to ask them to pay your HOA fees, again both the master and the sub) for two years. Now that you know they've done it for one buyer, it should be MUCH easier to ask for the same thing. If the sales team tries to deny that they have, they are lying. Also, it's public knowledge that there will be over 3000 homes in the new Fallon Village development. The Positano section of the Fallon Village is said to have 1000 homes, so Cantara is just a small project within Positano. You should negotiate your price and upgrade pricing with those 3000 homes in mind. I hope you have found my answer helpful. If you want to know more about the Fallon Village project, I highly recommend John Zukoski, the Around Dublin blogger, as the go-to person. He has a really good response rate (within 48 hours), and if he doesn't know the answer to a particular question, he will know who exactly to contact for more details. I tried to get him to participate on Trulia, but he has declined, because he does not want people to think that he's trying to sell homes. - Thu Aug 7 2008, 10:39

Hi Fizzy,
If it helps, I can confirm that Sorrento Firenze has just given a new home owner prepaid assessment as part of the closing terms. The quick delivery Cecina is now off the market, so the prepaid assessment should be for that unit. Also, I just discovered this new home development by Braddock and Logan by the Dublin Golf Course. It is the first of the Fallon Village homes. The prices look pretty reasonable, so they should only help in your negotiation with Toll Brothers. Again, good luck with everything. I know you will get a great deal from Toll Brothers. You have picked a great time to look for a new home. - Thu Aug 7 2008, 09:45

Hi Fizzy,
Yes, if, the reserve study determines that the true cost of maintaining the clubhouse, landscaping, and other master HOA expenses is $140, sooner or later, the home owners will be expected to pay $140 for the master HOA assessment PLUS whatever their individual subcommunity's assessments are. The HOA can, therefore, go up to $332 per month for those of us in Firenze. Neither Toll Brothers nor the current home owners would like that, so we will do everything we can to make sure we can keep the master HOA assessment at $90 per month.
Whether or not you can get Toll to agree to paying a year's worth of HOA assessment depends on how persistent you are and how much effort you are willing to put into checking out comparable properties. Over in Livermore, there is the Montage by Shea Homes. In Dublin, there are the Silvera Ranch townhomes, Tralee condos and townhomes, and Sonata single family homes just to name a few. All are desperate for qualified buyers whose loan will not fall through at the last minute. It happens more than the builders would like, especially in these hard times. Also, I would call up the Alameda County's assessor's office and ask how much a 4-bedroom, 3-bathroom in Sorrento/Dublin Ranch Villages is being assessed at. The more data you have on comparables, the more you will know what is fair to ask of Toll Brothers. As with all negotiations, you have to appear as if you are ready to walk away and know exactly the end result you want. Almost everything and anything is negotiable as long as you have not closed. Do not forget that. Stay calm, respectful, and objective, and don't fall prey to any sense of urgency Toll Brothers will try to create. The fact that you know that Toll has prepaid HOA assessments for some home buyers already gives you an advantage.
Steve Danforth is a good project manager, and I have no doubt you will like the Cecina townhome once you've moved in. What I tell people is that I did not buy a Toll Brothers home -- I bought a Steve Danforth home. Please do not hesitate to post additional questions to this thread. I will do my best to answer them. Also, please check my friend John's Around Dublin blog regularly. The information there is more accurate and up-to-date than anything Toll Sales can tell you. If you have any question about Dublin in general, please send John an email. if he doesn't know, he will be more than happy to ask the city on your behalf. Good luck, Fizzy. - Sun Jul 20 2008, 23:34

Hi Fizzy,
We just had our second Master HOA meeting. I don't know if sales manager Greg Betz disclosed that the master HOA assessment of $90 may go up once Toll Brothers stops subsidizing it. Toll Brothers is still legally bound to pay the master HOA and sub HOA assessments for the unsold units, which is different from the subsidy they are currently putting into the master HOA. Without it, according to Chuck Templeton of Toll Brothers, the master HOA assessment may go from $90 up to $140 per month. Toll Brothers will make that business decision come March 2009, two years after the grand opening of the Sorrento project. As I explained earlier, as long as you don't close, you still have negotiating power, so you should be able to negotiate in a clause that will require Toll Brothers to prepay one-year's worth of HOA on your behalf. I know for a fact they have done so for many units at the Terraces. Good luck, and the residents at Firenze look forward to having you as our neighbor. - Fri Jul 18 2008, 09:20

Hi Fizzy,
A base model Cecina at one time went for over $800K. In this market, I would not pay more than $250/sq ft, so your final purchase price should be no more than $672,500. I would put most of the $30K towards closing cost and lowering the final purchase price, of course, but you should try asking for at least $40K. I would also try to negotiate in price protection similar to the ones the Shea homes have at their Montage project in Livermore. Dublin is a good city with a lot of potential. If you want to learn more about the area you're considering buying, please check out this wonderful blog:

http://arounddublin.blogspot.com/

It has the latest information on the development around the Dublin Ranch Villages area. According to this blog, Sorrento at one time was supposed to have another phase east to the one you're considering. Toll is basically trying their best to wrap this project up and be done with Dublin, so I think you can make your offer at $650K and ask for $40K incentive. Good luck. - Fri Jun 27 2008, 16:59

Hi Na,
Thank you so much for the correction! It's hard to know exactly how the floorplan looks, since there is no finished model, and the dashed line in the floorplan draft on the web is misleading. I see now that the third parking spot elevated the livingroom area, such that the level is not split.
On an unrelated note, I just mailed in my ballot approving the necessary changes to the CC&R, so the Firenze homes at Sorrento may qualify for the FHA program. - Wed Sep 24 2008, 10:47

Hi Trevi_sorrento,

1. Capannori's livingroom and diningroom are on the same level, but Rome's livingroom and diningroom are split.

2. Capannori's master closet is inside the master bathroom, but none of Rome's closets is near any source of moisture.

3. Capannori is a true flat, where the garage is on the same level as the kitchen and livingroom.

4. Rome has a nice circular foyer and a covered terrace.

5. Capannori's loft is smaller and does not have a bathroom.

It is really tough to say which floorplan is better and will retain value. If you look at just the number of units per building, Capannori seems to have an advantage, but I think Rome's curb appeal is better. The Capannoris, because it does not have a covered entry, looks really out of place at Siena. - Mon Sep 22 2008, 12:22

Hi Aik,
I live in Sorrento, which is directly South of the Sonata project. I can assure you the Santa Rita Jail is the last thing on my mind when I walk around in the neighborhood in the evenings. The only time I am aware of the Santa Rita Jail is when the local news mentions how some high-profile personality is being held there. - Mon Sep 22 2008, 12:56

Hi Trevi_sorrento,
Also, don't forget that just because the homes are marked 'Sold' for now does not mean they will stay that way, especially if you are looking at Trevi. Home loans fall through all the time, especially given the current economic turmoil. Toll Brothers is much more likely to negotiate on their quick deliveries than the pre-spec'ed homes. The Trevi project has a LONG way to go. The parking lot that is currently across from the Trevi sales office will be the last Trevi building to go up. If you really want the best deal possible for a brand new home, I would wait for some of the 'Sold' homes to come back onto the market around Christmas time, which is traditionally the slowest time for Toll Brothers. - Mon Sep 22 2008, 12:51

Grand Opening Event
Saturday Sept 13th 11:00am to 4:00pm
Italian Summer Fest

· Catered Event with Italian Sodas, Flavored Coffees, and Gelato
· Prize Drawing for a 50” Plasma TV and Three $100 Gas Cards
· Reusable Grocery Bag Give Away
· See How Positano is Becoming a Special Destination - Wed Sep 10 2008, 12:00

I checked out the Schaefer Ranch homes today, and I agree with Rouriel Noubini 100% -- the homes ARE way overpriced. There are two classes of homes on sale. The $800K homes are called Mesa Point, and the million-dollar homes are called Shadow Canyon. The Mesa Point homes are single-family homes, but Seeno applied townhome construction techniques like tall and narrow corridors throughout this project. All the bedrooms are smaller than one would expect, given the builder has over 2000 square feet to work with for each floorplan and the master bathroom tubs are all sized comfortably for only one person -- not two. In addition, the stairways are distractingly narrow. People would have to be anorexic to live in one of these Mesa Point homes.

The Shadow Canyon homes are much better designed, but they are way overpriced, especially when you can buy a Cantara home by Braddock & Logan in Fallon Village for $250K less on average. What bothered me the most about the Shadow Canyon homes is that the builder did not go for those nice interior finishing touches like decorative archways throughout this project. Also, the interior designers they chose did NOT do a good job with the color palette, furniture selection, and designer upgrades. As a result, the Shadow Canyon homes felt more like something out of Mountain House than a luxury home in Dublin.

I encourage everyone who is considering buying a new home in Dublin to check out both Seeno's Schaeffer Ranch and Braddock & Logan's Cantara in Positano. The dramatic difference between these two products is best appreciated in person. - Mon Sep 1 2008, 16:51

Hi Buyerineastbay,
John M. Zukoski, the Around Dublin blogger got some numbers for us.

Capri (2242 sq. ft.): $713K
Aria (2663 sq. ft.): $756K-$763K
Montare (2674 sq. ft.): $765K
Portofino (3027 sq. ft.): $813K

John said these numbers are from about a week or two ago. Also, he saw a few reservations on units from the first phase already.

My impression is that these homes are bigger and nicer than Lennar's Sonata, and they are priced VERY competitively when compared to Toll Brothers' Milano and Lennar's Sonata. I don't like the look-and-feel of Sonata's exterior, because they look cheap to me; however, I do love the solar roofs. The Cantara homes are supposed to be eco-homes, because they use a lot of recycled material and employ building methods that minimize energy loss. Unfortunately, they don't come with solar roofs. These homes' exteriors have a Mediterranean feel, so they feel more distinctive when compared to the Sonata homes.

There is also another Braddock & Logan development nearby called Salerno, which is also part of Fallon Village. I won't be able to check them out until mid-September, so if you have more questions about these two Braddock & Logan developments, I'd email John and ask him for his opinions and impressions. John seems to know the East Dublin developments like the back of his hand, so I'd definitely pick his brain. Good luck. - Fri Aug 22 2008, 20:44

Hi Buyerineastbay,
I have walked through the models. The first one is on the small side, and the last one has a split-level master bedroom. All the lots are on the small side, but the square footages for floorplans 2, 3, 4 are all respectable. There should be around 75 homes in the Cantara community. I have not had the chance to check out the other Braddock and Logan community. The prices are very competitive (from low 700K). If you are on the market for a new home, I would definitely check them out. - Fri Aug 22 2008, 13:36