Donna

Gail;

Then why does the offer state, "This is a legally enforceable contract, you should consider whether you whish to consult your attorney prior to signing the same."? Further, it states, (withing the lead paint disclosure contingency, "This agreement obligates the parties to sell and purchase the real property described herein... and the purchaser and seller have agreed to perform under terms hereof or any other terms and conditions subsequently negotiated."

No where in the document does it stipulate that the seller may continue to show the home, or may accept another offer.

How is this not a legally binding contract?

Further, we later discovered that the listing agent did not disclose that the seller was her grandmother, and that the competing offer was not only brought by the same agency, but from another friend of the family.

They may have acted within the confines of the law, but I may file an ethics complaint with the NYS Board of Ethics, as the agent acted in a manner that was "deemed untrustworthy."

So, it appears that I may have some recourse, after all. - Fri May 2 2008, 12:50

I've decided to try and find an exclusive buyer's agent (one who works for a company that only represents buyers, and does not have any listings). I'm just not getting what I need from this person. I feel like I'm doing all of the work. Thanks. I'll continue to be patient, stick to my guns, and see how it goes. - Mon Mar 31 2008, 10:43

Melinda:
Thanks again! I really like the letter approach. I also like the face-to-face, red wine with linguine approach ;)

Barbara:
Your response actually gave me quite a chuckle, as I was amazed with the utter lack of a factual basis for any of your statements:

Barbara said: First, you are low-balling offers for houses in the highest ranking school districts in the nation. Forget it. They'll get their price.

*As stated, all of my offers were solidly within the comps. Therefore, they were NOT low-ball offers. In fact, (as stated) one offer was 5K over the highest comp (yet still 10% below the listing price). Therefore, the listing were OVERPRICED.
**The sellers have not gotten their price, and they won't. (Even if someone offers their price, it would only work as a cash purchase, as the houses will fail to appraise at the asking prices, and the mortgage will be rejected, unless the prices are adjusted accordingly).
***They are NOT the highest ranking school districts in the country, or even the state. (Have I mentioned that I am a statistician?) They are excellent school districts, but some are more legends in their own minds). You may (or may not) want to check your opinions, before you state them as facts.

Barbara said: Second, WHY ARE YOU USING A BUYER'S AGENT? No seller in their right mind will pay that extra point.

*Because I need a buyer's agent to get and evaluate the comps for any house of interest, which then determine the offering price. My offers are based solidly on CMAs for the past 3 months, the same school district, and within 1 mile of the house for sale. This is the only good way to determine what the house is actually worth, according to recent data, and market trends (which are conservatively projected to contract another 5.6% for Suffolk county for 2008, and another 2.8% for 2009, by the way).

**The seller does not need to pay an "extra" point. They should have the seller's agent split their points with the buyer's agent.

Barbara stated: Another possible reason? I have rejected 4 offers for the sale of my house and accepted an offer lower than some because I want a truly qualified buyer. Today's sellers do not want to get stuck waiting for mortgage commitments that never arrive. Any really good seller's agent - like mine - only recommends accepting an offer after fully vetting a buyer. Pre-qualification is the absolute minimum requirement. 719 credit score 15% downpayment is the new standard. Under 719 is considered sub-prime.

*Here's where you provided my biggest chuckles. Where did you get your information, I'm curious? First of all, my LOWEST fico score is (drumroll, please......) 795! (Right back "atcha!)
**15% as the "new standard?" "719 is considered sub-prime?" Not according to my banks. Again, where did you derive this information? Oh, and a pre-qualification letter is not worth the paperwork that it is written on, as only formal pre-approvals involve a complete credit and employment check, etc.
***I got my pre-approval from a well-established (and local) bank. I'm good to go. I'm a seller's agent prime candidate, and I'm negotiating from a position of strength (did I mention that I'm renting?)

Keep living the dream, Barbara! Sadly, seller's attitudes like yours will help to keep us mired in this housing crisis.

;) - Wed Mar 26 2008, 15:42

Melinda;
Sorry for being so touchy in my previous response to you. I was tired and cranky, at the end of the day.
Your suggestion to have my buyer's agent present the offer is a good one. First, I need to have a frank discussion with her, regarding her presentation style (per Don's advice). She may not be approaching the offer from a position of confidence, and a belief in the data provided by the comps. That's my feeling, but I will need to clarify with her.
I have, and will continue to, consider a negotiation in terms. However, I'm not going to pay full price (10-20% concession), and have the seller pay closing costs (3% concession), due to a creating a potential negative equity situation, and setting the appraisal up for failure.
I may just ask the seller's agent, frankly, how they derived the listing price (e.g., was it based on "needs" or "comps?" Also, if I run the comps, and determine that the asking price is way out of range, I'll still make the offer, but realize that the seller is probably more committed to a number than selling. So, the offer will be at high risk for rejection.
I'll stick to my guns, continue to rely on the data, use my head instead of my heart, and remain patient.
Thanks, everyone! - Wed Mar 26 2008, 07:21

Melinda;

Like I have repeated (and repeated, and repeated): all of my offers have fallen solidly within the range of comps. Apples to apples; granite to granite; new windows to new windows; 3 bedroom/1 bath to 3 bedroom/1 bath; same school district; past 3 months; 1 mile radius. It's amazing to be accused of stealing a house. No robbery here. Even willing to buy a fixer, just not willing to pay an extra 70K because the seller thinks the circa 1954 kitchen and bath, and roof, floors, windows, electrical, and plumbing are comparable to the other house on the same block listed at roughly the same price with a kitchen and 2 baths that were renovated in 2005, and with all new (thermopane) windows, new roof, 200amp electrical, etc. Like I said, my offers were refused because the sellers stated that they NEEDED to... fund their retirement, their inheritance, and/or "cover" 100% of the renovations that they completed in 2004. So, I'm not unrealistic. Just patient, and stubbornly refusing to overpay. Oh, and there is no danger of me losing my "dream home" because it simply does not exist, not in my price range! - Tue Mar 25 2008, 13:23

Thank you, JR!

Donna: I am the one who is tabulating all of the comps from the stratus reports that my agent provides me for recent sales for the past 3 months (a lot of work, but my agent said that there was no way to do this, in Suffolk county),
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is no way to do what in Suffolk County?
*To create a table for a CMA of recent sales (3 months) for the property of interest. Instead, my buyer's agent sends the Stratus reports to me, then I have to create my own tables for each property. I include in the my columns: property address; date sold; days on market; listing price; sales prices, % difference; bedroom/bath; parking (garage or driveway); condition, and remarks (including size & sqft). This person also says that there is no way to get square footage on any property, as this is not done for homes. So, I type all of this data into my table, determine differences between properties (e.g., new windows/roof/plumbing; electrical; updated kitchens and baths; any other additions, CAC, etc) and determine a price based on all of this data. Like I said, all of my offers have been well within the comps. They are on the low end for fixers, and on the high end for turn-key (I even offered 5K over the highest comp for one home in turn-key condition, then went up another 5K as a counter-counter offer. I was very concerned that the home would not appraise at a price any higher). I will keep looking, and keep using numbers.

As to the comment by Jeffery: Yes, I really want to buy. As I have made perfectly clear, all of my offers were solidly based on recent CMAs for the house of interest. I see no need to buy a house based on what the seller "needs" just as they don't (and shouldn't) care what I can afford. The house should be sold based on worth, nothing else. The market should drive the price, not wants and needs.

Thanks, again, everyone! This has been very helpful! - Tue Mar 25 2008, 13:13

I appreciate all of the very good comments to stick with the data, and stay the course. I have made it clear that the seller may feel free to re-enter negotiations with me, if they change their minds, later. As a statistician, I crunch numbers for a living, so I will remain focused on a numbers-based (versus an emotion-based) approach in purchasing a home. I don't care to lose my 10% down-payment in order to take care of a seller's "needs." Regarding the average of 10% below listing for all of these areas: differences in percentages may reflect the fact that I am using a different price range. I have not even accounted for reductions in prices prior to close, which would drive the % much lower. I may need to consider another buyer's agent. I am the one who is tabulating all of the comps from the stratus reports that my agent provides me for recent sales for the past 3 months (a lot of work, but my agent said that there was no way to do this, in Suffolk county), then showing my agent my reasons (based on the comps) to stipulate my given offer. No, I have not gotten a better reason to offer higher, just "my gut tells me that x$ is a good price for this house," or "this is a good price, for this town." I feel like I am the only person who is using comps to determine the fair market value of the houses that I have seen! I'm glad to hear that other seller's agents use comps to determine a fair listing! thanks, again! - Tue Mar 25 2008, 10:33

In response to Victoria, all of the recent comps indicated that homes have been selling at an average of 10% below listing prices, for all of the areas that I listed. So, my agent is not reading the comps, either! And, all of the homes listed in the comps were on the market for well over 60-200 days! Is this not the definition of a buyer's market? Thanks. - Tue Mar 25 2008, 05:53

My buyer's agent provided the comps. All offers were well within the range of the last 3 months of comps for a 1 mile radius and same school district, and all were relevant. The offers have been made within the past few months. All houses are still on the market. On one house, my offer was considerably higher than another offer. All sellers have stated that they "need" a certain figure to... fund their retirement, fund their inheritance for their children, and/or cover 100% of the costs of renovations completed within the past 5 years. I received counteroffers on 2/5 of the houses, then I countered, then got no response, or no counter. On the same 2/5 offers, even the seller's agents told the buyer that these were good offers! Thanks for your replies. - Tue Mar 25 2008, 05:39

Gail;
This is the second time that I saw you state that realtors may not discuss school districts or neighborhoods. Is this NYS law? I'm wondering, because my buyer's agent offers her opinions on both neighborhoods and schools, quite frequently. In fact, I have had several "discussions" (disagreements) with her, because her information was not consistent with the data that I have analyzed.
Thanks! - Thu Mar 27 2008, 17:17