Frankly, I'm not sure what your motivation for this comment is, given that this is your first post to this thread.
Wouldn't you agree that the fact that 9 Brinscall owners are currently $42,800+ underwater is relevant information for anyone interested in one of those models? Also, that there are at least two units that have been on sale over a year with no takers also relevant?
Furthermore, the fact that WCI submitted a Form 15 - request to deregister - with the SEC (less that 300 shareholders), so they no longer have to publicly provide complete accounting of all their activities and creditors indicative of the current state of the builder?
Thank you for your opinion, but I appreciate the stream of information, and I'm sure others do as well.
in tort law, that comes up to gross negligence, which leads to punitive damages.
By the way, a jury just returned a verdict of over $2 million dollars to ONE couple with ONE Chinese Drywall problem. That was against Banner. Now . . . for the slow people, count up how much money WCI set aside for these cases, and how many cases there are. I don't want to give away the surprise ending for all you WCI cheerleaders, but if you can do basic math, it shouldn't be a surprise.
Gosh, I bet you are disappointed WCI went private after it tanked. Missed your chance to buy stock!
Wait, I'm overestimating my audience. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Sales for the smaller 2 bedroom 2.5 townhomes have generally been around $350,000 since about September of 2008. I did not specifically look at the larger units, but I am pretty sure I saw a couple of three bedrooms go for around $490,000. As far as I know, there has not been a resale unit sold. If the owners want to sell, they just need to be more competitively priced to take in account what has happened to the market if they want to move. I'm pretty sure another developer that has the money will go in there and complete the project as planned, if they can get the land cheap off, price the units so they can sell and make a profit on this endeavor. I always thought that the developer was asking too much in the beginning for units in Rivington, compared to what you got elsewhere.
I want to thank you for keeping this thread alive and keeping me informed to the plight of WCI. I recently purchased into their Four Corners community prior to the chapter 11 filing and have been following their downfall ever since. I actually know someone who bought into Rivington about a year ago, and she is devastated by the cancellations of amenities, future phases, etc.
I wish there was something that owners in these two communities could do to recoup the substantial losses. It appears that they are now holding fire sales on existing units and really starting to cut corners to reduce costs. These actions are exasperating what is already an historic downturn in the real estate market. People who purchased a year or two ago have seen a couple hundred thousand dollars of value wiped out.
Fortunately, for me at least, Four Corners is 50% sold, so I am hoping that a substantial part of the remainder is completed as well.
Talk about buyers remorse...
I think I would be extreamly upset as an owner of the 2 Carrington models that sold in May for $720,000 & July for $600,000 even though these have finished basements. I was also surprised to see roughly 40 sales within this complex over the past year, most being between February to mid June of 2008.
Like others have said, Rivington seems like a ghost town. In all of my visits, I only noticed a handful of residents, most of the other units were either on sale or incomplete. My other gripes with the community are that the layout is akward and the roads within the community are confusing and abruptly turn into unfinished roads (construction is still underway). In the end, I simply decided that I did not want to live in a construction zone with only a handful of residents. At this point, given the Chapter 11 filing, I seriously doubt that they will complete the subsection that they are working in now, let alone the rest of the proposed development.
You'll get a much better deal when the development goes into receivership. Even pricing in the unbuilt amenities (that won't even get built anyways) this development has some serious pricing issues; by a factor of 3 at the least.
I drive by it every day. All work there has stopped. Sit back and enjoy the show.
I hope the progress with TB brings a huge sense of calm to everyone there =)
Matt, if you can't figure out that a condo listed at $619,900 closing for $424,000 shows a serious lack of investment potential, none of us here can help you.
If you can't figure out that a condo listed for $589,900 is delusional seller's optimism when a nearly identical (but better) condo just sold for $424,000, no one here can help you with that either.
Those are facts. The rest is you wasting all of our time making this some personal flame war.
If you have any argument for why 14 Brinscall is not $100,000 overpriced compared to recent comps, set it out here. Otherwise, please, find another message board to get personal and combative at.
I do own a WCI property in Four Corners. Unfortunately, WCI sold the remainder of the unfinished community (100+ lots) to Toll Brothers. The problem is that when a developer buys out the remaining properties, they are not necessarily obligated to complete or manage the community as originally planned.
Unfortunately, those that purchased into the Rivington "community" may or may not see the vision realized. That's a major issue when you paid a significant premium to buy into a planned neighborhood such as Rivington, but the finished product is turns out to be something completely different.
I think the point Ldahla and others are trying to make is that the original buyers paid a huge amount (admittedly during a real estate boom) for the community WCI is selling. WCI is just now emerging from bankruptcy and the future of Rivington is uncertain. Those who did purchase a few years ago have seen a 30-50% depreciation in their properties (as evidenced by sales data) and the future of the other 2 sections remain up in the air.
When I purchased into Four Corners there were parts of the community (Day Care Center, Dry Cleaner, Ice Cream parlor, etc.) that were planned. When WCI sold the community to Toll Brothers those amenities still haven't been completed, and Toll Brothers turned around and sold the retail spaces to someone else. At this point, I do not expect to see any of these amenities in my community.
Furthermore, WCI was not just a home builder, they promoted community activities and other "lifestyle" features. Toll Brothers on the other hand, is a home builder only, so many of the community events have been fading away, or have been picked up by residents. Needless to say, the "lifestyle" is no longer what WCI was promoting.
In the end, what good is there in buying into a community that is never realized? WCI still markets 30,000 sq/ft of recreational amenities. Wouldn't you be upset if you bought into that and it never came to pass? Or worse, it did and instead of the costs being spread around 700+ units, it is shouldered by the 150-200 units in the Hills?
While you may perceive Ldahla and others to be painting a doom-and-gloom picture, they are merely voicing well founded concerns to potential buyers. These are real issues that affect the value of the homes in the development as well as the general "lifestyle" of the owners in the community. Many of the planned amenities are well suited to young families with kids. If the playgrounds, community center, pools, etc. never come to pass, most of the benefits to families with children are eroded along with the resale value in general.
As always, it is buyer beware. This is simply a forum where you can learn about some of the potential pitfalls and make an educated decision. Anyone who is considering the purchase of a half a million dollar townhouse from an bankrupt developer with two-thirds of the community incomplete would need as much information as possible.
So, bravo to everyone that is keeping this thread alive. Whether you think that this is a desirable or terrible development is inconsequential, as long as the information is out there so that others can make the decision for themselves.
WCI sent in the clones to pump up this thread full of booster-ism. Borderline comical. Almost.
If you think anyone (the least of which bankrupt WCI) will build anything else on this site, to include the imagined amenities, then I have a bridge I'd love to sell you in Brooklyn. It's just not going to happen.
5 Rivington Way - it's a 3BR 3/1B with 2900 sq ft. and a fully finished basement. A Carrington model?
The price is reduced from $759,000 to $675,000. Comes with all the furniture & upgrades, etc.
3 Rivington Way - a 3BR 3/1B with 3600 sq ft, fully finished basement. Fully furnished with all the furniture, upgrades - etc. $699,000. This was previously the address of "WCI Communities Design Studio", so I guess it includes office space.
And the sellers of 3 Brinscall dropped their price from $399,000 to $379,000 - so it is now overpriced by only about 50K.
WCI Communities is currently operating Chapter 11 bankruptcy and expects to face about $40 million in claims related to defective drywall. WCI has agreed to set up a trust to help homeowners affected by Chinese drywall as part of their reorganization plan.
Earlier this month the popular home builder Lennar confirmed that they built about 400 Florida homes using the allegedly defective product.
Homeowners of homes fitted with Chinese drywall have seen extensive damage to electrical components in their homes caused by foul sulfurous gases emitted from the allegedly defective drywall. Several homeowners have also complained of headaches, difficulty breathing other potentially dangerous health problems.
The EPA and the state health official have conducted numerous tests to determine the potential risks associated with Chinese drywall; however, no conclusive data is yet available."
It seems the Rivington condos are selling for around $100,000-$150,000 less than they were offered in 2006-07. And that is for the new, never-lived-in units. Resale is taking a real beating. I watched numbers 3, 7 and 10 brinscall for quite a while, and the owners now have them listed at around $40-50K loss, but no takers.
WCI Communities is selling off some properties. It is conceivable they might sell off Rivington to another developer who will finish the community, but even so, there is no telling at what standard of living.
I feel for Rivington buyers. It must have looked good going in - but it's seriously painful now even for a bystander just watching . . .
For example, 24 brinscall is the model home for the Essex style - the one being sold fully furnished and as is. Now it has a tax lien.
If you had a buyer who wanted to purchase it - what does that do to the transaction?
go to the link and use the "simple" search. Type in WCI Communities in the name spot. Then put in the dates with the year in long form. If you run 05/15/2009 to 05/27/2009 you will see 186 hits. 180 of them are the tax liens.
It was purchased 02/08 for $427,510 and was a rental for a while.
That is probably the first realistic listing price I have seen for Rivington to date. It's a short sale MLS 98422527
Last sales (or perhaps just transfers) in May were
1-106 Riverington Way on 5/4/09
20-17 Mill Road on 5/4/09
19-29 Mill Road on 5/18/09
Perhaps you meant 29 Mill Road?
Will see what I can find out as time permits.. Jim
Dorset 29 Mill is under contract at 460K. (down from 653K , to 565K, to 499K to sale)
The Allerton at 20 Warrington closed in Feb. at 350K (down from 419K to 399K to sale)
The Carrington at 31 Mill closed in Dec for 505K (down from 769K, to 643K to 499K to sale)
Carringtons 17 Mill and 25 Mill are both closing in April for $499,000. (down from over 750K)
The suped up red Dorset at 19 Mill closed last Oct for $497K (down from over 650K)
Also, it is an interesting situation in the broader scope of the ongoing economic stress and the aftermath of the implosion of the housing bubble.
The fact that there are newer, swankier (is that a word?) condo communities being built next to Rivington make it that much less appealing to buy into an unfinished, no longer new community with all the WCI troubles.
I really feel for the residents there. They won't have any recourse against WCI (the line for claims is insanely long in their bankruptcy case and it is closed to new claims), and the best they can hope for is that the community is bought out by a company that will finish it as it was planned. But it is possible, and likely, Rivington won't ever be the community it was planned to be. The buyers there are stuck.
Been in the real estate business since 1984. I honestly think Rivington offered a decent product and in a great commuting location. NY Line.. No brainer!! However, economics caught up. Rivington just got in a little late.. Not just this community, as housing prices have depreciated overall. It is not uncommon to find a home that sold in 2005 for $350K selling now for $250K or less.
It will work out.. I am sure.. Excellent location.. Would I buy now?. probably not as I think their prices are still high for this market.. Can it change in the immediate future..Sure! The basics...Supply and demand!!
Wish you the best.
Looks like I way over-guestimated the base prices anyway. The housing report this morning is grim. Take the base on an Essex and shave 20% off and it starts at $416,000 for a normal unit on the market. Then add in the WCI bankruptcy and canceled phases & canceled amenities and, well, I don't think your 50% is off the mark. They should list the 3 bedrooms in the $300,000's.
If they actually plan to sell anything, that is. WCI is hemorrhaging money so fast they could sell out Rivington and it wouldn't stop the blood flow.
The Dorset model listed on the WCI site for $559,900 was just put on MLS for $499,000. Actually, they just listed three Dorset models, 3, 13 and 29 Mill Road for $499,000 (3/2.5 2056 sq. feet). Blurb from the listings:
5% TO SELLING AGENT IF SIGN BY 3/31 AND CLOSE BY 4/15. STAINLESS STEEL APPLIANCES-LAPACHO WHITE PLANK WOOD FLOORING CHERRY WOOD CABINETS-GRANITE COUNTERTOPS MB-CHERRY WOOD CABINETS AND MARBLE COUNTERTOPS
Common charges $287 taxes $7485
Don't get too excited - the Dorsets already list on the WCI site at $499. But these apparently have loads of upgrades, which was why 29 Mill Road is on their "quick delivery" list still at $559 - and based on the sales history of Rivington, the typical upgrade package is about $60,000. So for a sense of pricing - take the base price and shave $60,000 of it (without any upgrades) and you have the known lowball for Rivington.
Eg: Essex, 60K upgrades = $520,000 (current base)
Essex, no upgrades = $455,000 low fig
Then again - I'm not a real estate agent so don't rely on MY math lol
BONITA SPRINGS â€” Bonita Springs-based WCI Communities Inc. reported a loss of $576.8 million for the quarter ending Sept. 30, up from a loss of $69.7 million a year ago.
As it looks to reorganize under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, the homebuilder continues to struggle to stay afloat. The company outlined its quarterly losses in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, saying â€œthere is substantial doubt about our ability to continue as a going concern.â€
. . .â€œIn conjunction with our advisers, we are implementing strategies to aid our liquidity and our ability to continue as a going concern. However, such efforts may not be successful.â€
Things are not looking good, and that is only the damage up to Sept. 30.
The Cambridge going for $300,000 is pretty telling. It is still listed as starting at $435,900 on their site.
I think Rivington does have a few more things in inventory because on their site they list an Isleby model. It is a 2/2 with 1229 sq ft. One of the condos that is in a multi unit building as opposed to a townhome style. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a few of those on hand.
I can't see them building anything new, do you? Not with their homes going for $150,000 - $250,000 less than listed. I am way skeptical!
As far as current active inventory in Rivington on MLS, there are 6 units, of which 3 are resales and the rest are the models.
Link to active listings:
They also reported a few closed sales last Friday - a Cambridge model for $300,000 and slightly larger townhouse w/ 2 car garage for $350,000.
That is the 3 bedroom Carrington model condo that was originally listed for $769,555, then dropped to $643,500 but was offered over the holidays at $499,000. I am curious what the buyers actually paid for it.