Gary,
You wrote: Having done the research, I can tell you the answer, but you will not believe me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I might believe you, but let's see your research. I doubt very much that similar houses sell for 27.5% less when sold FSBO than when sold by a Realtor. If that was the case, we could go into business buying FSBO houses for 72.5 cents on the dollar and turning around and reselling them for full price with a Realtor.

Stick,
I suspect that you are partially correct. Drive through two distinct neighborhoods. One of upper crust, old money, expensive homes and then a traditional moderate income area, and count the FSBO signs in each. You will see that there are far fewer in a wealthy area. The reason is that wealthy people know when to hire things out to professionals whereas I am 41 and just stopped changing my own oil after nearly blowing up my wife’s engine and destroying my pristine driveway. So in theory, you have a very valid point.

But then on the other side of the coin, write down those addresses and keep an eye on them. Find 6 similar houses in moderate neighborhood. 3 FSBOS and 3 listed, keep an eye on them. Go back in six months…..see what they sold for. (you might have to keep finding FSBO’s as they give up and list as I did) Having done the research, I can tell you the answer, but you will not believe me.

Good luck.

Gary De Pury
Broker-Owner
Bay Vista Realty

George, You wrote:

"Stickman: from NAR Profile of Home Sellers and Buyers 2008, page 100:
SELLING PRICE, FSBO AND AGENT-ASSISTED SELLERS
The median selling price for all recently sold homes was $204,900. The median price in FSBO sales was
$153,000, while the median in agent-assisted sales was $211,000. so that is actually 27.5% less for the FSBO. So did they save the commission? Fine."

I'm not doubting the numbers you quoted, but rather the conclusion that FSBOs are costing themselves on average 27.5% by selling the house themselves. I'm guessing that the median FSBO house, by sheer coincidence, happens to be valued by approximately 27.5% less than the median agent-assisted house.

I've seen this several times on these threads. Someone will ask a question about selling a house on their own, Realtor commissions, flat-rate Realtors, etc, and each time there will be a post explaining to the questioner how much money they will lose by not using an agent and this figure (approx 25%) is used. I'm sure there is a net income difference to the seller based on using an agent or FSBO, but I would guess it's in the range of only a few %, and may actually be in the sellers advantage. For this number to be meaningful, it would have to take into account the underlying value of the house, otherwise it's apples and oranges.

"The law also allows that competitor to engage in competitive advertising, in which the company explicitly compares its stated commission rate to the rates publicly promoted or advertised by other firms, provided that the advertising was truthful and not misleading. In fact, the policy underlying antitrust laws — promotion of vigorous and healthy competition — would tend to favor and encourage such comparative advertising since it helps consumers easily compare and contrast prices offered by various companies"
..............................................................
John, I didn't have to reread the sentence. I am sure Alan didn't, either.
The law allows a company to advertise it's commission fee - no one has questioned that.........there was a now-defunct company called Foxtons that made a big deal out of prominently advertising its low fee, and even put it on their signs. All was perfectly legal. That has nothing to do with agents having a discussion among themselves or on the internet.

Nor does the law force you to negotiate YOUR fee.........you are twising words if that's what you were implying............negotiable means that there is no set fee that the INDUSTRY sets....it means that the consumer may discuss and negotiate fees, as there are no set fees industry-wide......individual companies or agents may set their own fees; that's their prerogative...................you can't really be interpreting the meaning to be that you MUST negotiate YOUR fee, now can you John? Maybe you just like to be dramatic.

And by the way,..I got 100% on the quiz, too.....(big deal).

GOOD NITE TEDDY WE WISH YOU THE BEST

There are things that are customary, it does not mean you have to follow. I pulled the post off because you guys need to get off of it and move on. In Florida Title is paid by the buyer but in Palm Beach County it is paid by the seller. it does not mean that Palm Beach sellers and buyers are breaking the law since it is customary and negoitable the buyer can agree to pay. I am not coming back to this post and please no emails. It is a waste of time to have 72 responses

Ok JR

i charge XXX% and that IS NOT NEGOTIABLE!

and this is a violation?????

No it not sorry
NEGOTIABLE IS not necessary

hello - I charge XXX% and I refuse to negotagate !!!!
with any one for any reason

and I scream it on top of the largest mountian
on the largest bill boards
in print ads
on the radio
on tv
NAR approves
and the government approves of such free speech (see them 10 - you know)

ALL COMMISSIONS ARE NEGOTIABLE ..What's so hard about that? They call you up and then you say (For my Services I ........) That's the beginning or end of negotiation and very acceptable...I expect X% whatever...

Why is that so difficult? No Risk and the absolute "Appearance of" compliance with the Anti-Trust issue...A good thing, you could even PR the heck out of WE FOLLOW THE RULES......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Part of the problem with "I expect X%" is that it doesn't address what services I provide for x%. I can assure you that every one of my sellers was more than thrilled with my services and didn't complain when I was paid. And I have had more than a few who expected me to accept less, but in the end paid me what I expected and were happy.

And on point to our discussion - I ask you to read my correct answer to #6 and the comment by NAR about us not talking about our commissions.

6. Antitrust price-fixing rules do not allow a real estate company to engage in a public advertising campaign that highlights the commission rate it charges to consumers.



Your Answer Is Correct: False
The prohibition on price fixing forbids agreements among competitors on prices, such as real estate listing commission rates, including commission splits. The law does not preclude a competitor who establishes its commission rate unilaterally and without agreement with other companies from advertising that commission rate. The law also allows that competitor to engage in competitive advertising, in which the company explicitly compares its stated commission rate to the rates publicly promoted or advertised by other firms, provided that the advertising was truthful and not misleading. In fact, the policy underlying antitrust laws — promotion of vigorous and healthy competition — would tend to favor and encourage such comparative advertising since it helps consumers easily compare and contrast prices offered by various companies.


Debbie, Alan please read the last sentence more than once, and then go over my other comments again.

I case you wonder - I got !00%

heres a great area from NAR

Take the quiz let me know how you did.

http://www.realtor.org/rmoquiz2.nsf/antitrustquiz?openform

Dunes, thanks for the link to the NAR publication. I was not aware of it and look forward to reviewing. I am hoping it will calrify the matter for me.

Stickman: from NAR Profile of Home Sellers and Buyers 2008, page 100:
SELLING PRICE, FSBO AND AGENT-ASSISTED SELLERS
The median selling price for all recently sold homes was $204,900. The median price in FSBO sales was
$153,000, while the median in agent-assisted sales was $211,000. so that is actually 27.5% less for the FSBO. So did they save the commission? Fine.

It is NAR Publication that you can obtain @:
http://www.realtor.org/prodser.nsf/products/E186-45-09?OpenD…

Dunes, I will simply say, "I concur"

My personal mantra is......when in doubt, don't - especially on the internet.

I think many agents jump in, and discuss the commission question out of ignorance of the law......many out of arrogance, thinking they understand the law, and their view is the correct one..........many may just be confused, so they think, what the heck...........
Once I was reminded, (here on Trulia), of the anti-trust laws....even if some ambiguity exists about what may or may not be proper to discuss, I now prefer to err on the side of caution.....hence .... when in doubt. don't.

Since I was addressed and the issue was addressed I hope you all do not mind if I just try to completely explain my view/perception of this Topic (Discussions of Commissions).

First I have nothing to gain or loose if I'm right or wrong. If proven wrong then I apologize and admit when the subject comes up I was wrong. I've posted a lot and if you breeze through my comments I've been proven wrong and I've apologized ect..

If you as a Realtor are proven wrong it carries consequences for you and others as there is a chain...The Agent to the Broker..The Broker to the Board...The Board (get my drift) and NAR is involved because you all are members...

I express my opinion which I believe is correct because those who participate in what I see as a dangerous practice can damage the industry for People/Professionals other than just their individual selves.

All Right...Let's start here

Remember the thought ( The appearance of ) Remember the Recent DOJ vs NAR case, even if you feel that it has nothing to do with discussing commissions at this point just consider/review the role (The appearance of ) was in the case the DOJ pursued

Now remember this...
Per Se Offenses in Antitrust Actions for the Real Estate Business

Definition: Certain acts of a real estate agent, broker or brokerage can be deemed per se offenses of the federal antitrust statutes if they are of the type that have been deemed extremely anticomptitive to the point that proof of their anticompetitive nature is not necessary, only that the defendant committed the act or acts.

The government has identified per se offenses in the real estate industry to include commission fixing, setting coop splits, boycotting competitors for any reason, or even agreeing to setting the time frame for listing contracts.
http://realestate.about.com/od/pr/g/per_se_offense.htm.
and this
Agents and brokers in any setting, business or social, should take great care to never even discuss commission rates in any context. It's much better to be safe than sorry in this case.
http://realestate.about.com/od/liabilityandrisk/p/antitrust_…

Now as I mentioned this topic has been around for a while, it is not by any means new..
Boycott. Price-fixing. Antitrust. Treble Damages. You. Your Firm. Your Association.
Reviewed October 2006
http://www.aaronline.com/documents/antitrustlimitedservice.aspx

Now when one considers the possibility that the internet is a fairly new frontier with all the social media ect..
it's sometimes viewed as a large coffee house, social environment enough so that "The appearance of" becomes important....

When dealing with potential violations of any kind it has always been wise in my opinion to remember that many people have believed they knew the law and were violating nothing in any way only to learn the enforcers had a different view. That is why I believe it is better to err on the side of caution.....

Price fixing is a major Anti-Trust issue and has been for a long time perhaps it would be wise to absolutely be certain you are correct? Especially in an place where all the world has access to what you say, often has little mercy in waiting for an explanation and can always be found.

If someone was building a case (perhaps an attorney's opinion?) I would think the internet would be an awful good tool in many cases.

Would they build a case? They did a few years ago....In this economy, time of mistrust, blame, who caused what, it is my very strong opinion that YES if they felt it made them look good (Let's be real), on the job, protecting the public, someone to blame for something whatever....Yes there is a possibility.

And the Brokers are responsible for the action of and all are members of NAR and all of a sudden
DOJ vs NAR....The question to be asked is not is it inevitable but is there any possibility at all especially remembering "The appearence of"

This may be the Best Investment any Agent can make....http://www.realtor.org/prodser.nsf/products/126-1093?OpenDocument

What other issue do Realtors face that can have such a huge impact on their Profession by the actions of just some?

In a Forum such as this does several Agents in a thread stating our anything (standard, usual, customary, average ect) commission is ....constitute "The appearance of"?

The final decision on that is not yours.....The final decision is going to be made by the enforcers and the courts....Are you sure you are right? Would it not be more wise to just avoid the Possibility?

ALL COMMISSIONS ARE NEGOTIABLE ..What's so hard about that? They call you up and then you say (For my Services I ........) That's the beginning or end of negotiation and very acceptable...I expect X% whatever...

Why is that so difficult? No Risk and the absolute "Appearance of" compliance with the Anti-Trust issue...A good thing, you could even PR the heck out of WE FOLLOW THE RULES......

Just my opinion, Dunes

George,
Can you post a link to those NAR stats that shows it costs the average FSBO 21% to sell their home.

Thanks Debbie - I'm not quite sure why, with all of the flack I get for my stance, I bother.

I also sent Teddy a private e-mail, informing him, just in case he didn't pop back into the thread... and his response to me was "that's why I called it 'Customary' ".

the blog you're talking about Debbie is linked below, and thanks for reading it. But it appears for those who don't get it (you'll notice that there are a couple of commenters who didn't get it either)... it seems there's just no convincing them to save themselves... ahh, well... it gives the governing bodies something to do.

Interesting, Dunes. I have seen those NAR stats. So since they are published I suppose that negates anti-trust prohibtion about brokers discussing commissions with each other. That is what I always thought was the "no-no," agents/brokers discussing among themselves. I thought discussing commissions with the public is, by the definition of negotiable, not prohibited. Am I splitting hairs or is that a real distinction as to the discussion.

Have you seen the NAR stats that indicate that it costs the average For Sale BY Owner 21% to sell their home by themself?

Alan.......bravo for once again trying to explain the concept that " commissions are negotiable, and there isn't a customary or usual" commission............... it isn't proper or legal to discuss it...especially in a public forum, where once you say something, it is out there forever in the interet world.

I have just about given up trying to "splain it" to the masses anymore..........

ps - read your blog on Active Rain on this very subject....might be a good idea to link to it for those who continue to argue the point, or don't get the point all together

Commissions are always negotiable--just keep in mind that low budget brokers may be all they have to offer.

Anna

Teddy says: "Commissions are negotiable but in Florida it is customary to give a 6%."

This is exactly what we've been talking about. Commission are negotiable, and there is no "customary" fee, in Florida or any other state... period. There is no standard, usual, norm or regular fee either. There is simply... "fees are negotiable". Period.

to say that there is a customary fee is a violation of the Sherman Anti Trust Act.

By doing an FSBO, you can pay 0% to a realtor. Just hire a real estate attorney for a flat fee to handle the legal paperwork, and you'll probably save a decent amount of money (depending on the value of the house).

If you're concerned about getting your house listed on MLS, just find a discount RE broker that's willing to let you pay a flat fee to get listed on the MLS.

I would not pay more than 6% total for commission.

What is wrong with telling the public what the going rate is?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe the atty general of Florida can tell you? :)

I am struck with the term " private conservation". That might be code for what?

What is wrong with telling the public what the going rate is?

We are afraid of what?

I have a very good understanding of price fixing, ran as CEO, a National marketing company for 30 odd years.

If you have to whisper in the back room about your fees,,,

" Hey, whats the cost of a Big Mac???"

"psssst. . . . . ."

"mister . . . ."

"come in my private room and well have a "private conservation"
how much the Big Mac costs."

"you want Fries with that???? . . . ."

No %, I prefer a flat fee for listing and attorney services...Starting at $199.

SELL RENT real estate http://www.sellrentrealestate.com

Hello John, Patrick, Rock and Debbie:

I absolutely agree with you all that Germaine's best answer to this question will come from the agent for which she decides to hire to sell her home. However, I think that the scope and breadth of the answers here should now give Germaine the one thing she did not have previously...and that is "options" and the understanding of some of those options.

Debbie, we are in agreement, that the rates are private and certainly should be discussed between broker/agent and seller or buyer and we are saying the same thing slightly differently. I do understand any seller's or buyer's curiosity, however, in what commission rates they might expect because there have been, admittedly, some pretty interesting posts here on Trulia, in the media, in print and online at other sites regarding the commissions one might "expect" to pay. And I will amend my previous statement that larger brokerages will, indeed, negotiate their price, but I will caveat that same statement that while a larger brokerage will negotiate, they are often prohibited from being as flexible as, say, the smaller brokerage without the national name, and that is, completely true.

Rather than a possible violation of Trulia's guidelines (Trulia prohibits the "discussion of any real estate brokerage's commission" which I believe refers more to a specific commission of a specific brokerage), I look at Germaine's question as a huge "thumbs up" to all of us here on Trulia that she trusts that we--online professionals--might "set her straight" on what to expect in terms of a range. Again, we've provided her and others wtih options and that's all we really can do.

I think, in deference to John as I think he and I somewhat cut from the same "cloth of utter candor", that sometimes in our attempts, as Realtors, to be completely correct, we fail to answer the questions in a manner most helpful to the questionner. I recognize we all have differing opinions and manners in which to state those opinions, but it would be nice to give the questionner more than a simple "ask your agent" whenever we know or can provide more information or service. I often admonish readers to get professional help or to talk with their Realtor, but I'll always add more information that might allow the Trulia questionner to "pinpoint" the question with more accuracy rather than simply to flail in an uninformed manner. I'm not trying to breach laws but, rather, to put out general knowledge that can provide a springboard upon which better, more pointed questions might be created and personally answered by a local professional.

So, I am hopeful that after all of this, Germaine, you have information upon which you can confidentally go out and interview and select an agent to represent you. Good luck!

Sincerely,
Grace Morioka, SRES, e-Pro
Area Pro Realty

So does Trulia. Check out item "n."


Good call Rockinblu.

"I don't think we disagree....we just have slightly different perspectives!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So does Trulia. Check out item "n."

http://www.trulia.com/guidelines/

Patrick , I agree with you.

Germaine, the best and only answer anyone can or should give you is.....speak to a few local agents, and see what they are offering as far as a marketing plan, and what commission they charge. At that point you will know what the range or average percentage is.

Even if I were so inclined to share what fee I charge, I have no idea what is done in your part of Georgia, and "averages"can vary even within the same state..

As an aside, Grace, I rspect you immensely,(afterall we're off to Hawaii soon!!)..but in referencing what national brokerages do, saying that they don't negottiate commission, really isn't so, nor does it have anything to do with the idea that "commissions are negotiable". That statement is intended to mean that there is no national ( or local ) industry standard commission.
Individual companies have the absolute right to establish minimum standards for their company and associates. There is an optimum commission my company would like me to obtain, but that isn't written in stone, either.....so in the end, that, too, is negotiable.

I don't think anyone argued that Germaine's queston wasn't reasonable...of course it was. I can understand Germaine's (or any seller's) curiosity as to commission.....it's a fair question - I agree with you. But, truthfully, the range of 1-8% you provided, didn't help her with the definitive answer she is looking for - even you stopped short of telling her what specific commissions are common in your area..........only local agents can do that - preferably in the privacy of her home or their offices.

I don't think we disagree....we just have slightly different perspectives!


Anyway.........Best wishes Germaine with whatever you decide!
Debbie Rose
Prudential NJ Properties

The question is a fair question to ask, however, I think that this is a private conversation between a broker and a buyer or seller. This is an open forum and I think that this is where people get a little nervous and rightly so.

In real estate "price fixing" occurs when competing brokers agree to set sales commissions, fees or management rates. Brokers must independently determine commission rates or fees only for their firms.

Although this is not what the topic is here exactly, brokers and agents should take caution when answering this question in a public forum. They must be careful not to imply any price fixing by saying things such as "the normal rate" or "commonly" or anything that would insinuate a set rate. They must make it clear that this is what their office charges and not a set rate.

It is strongly suggested by many real estate organizations that this subject not be discussed in an open forum.

Grace you are a breath of fresh air

Hello Germaine and everyone....

Finally had a chance to read ALL of the responses on this thread, and I am surprised--as I always am--of the responses to a fairly simple question. Asking the "average percentage rate" that a Realtor charges is certainly legitimate, and I see no problems in mentioning that the range can be as low a 1% and as high as 8% depending on the business plan, services provided, etc. I see no intent or spirit to break laws, whatsoever, in the dissemination of this information, which is the answer to Germaine's relevant question. Anti-trust laws (Sherman, Clayton, Robinson-Pattman, Keller-Cevaller, Hart, etc.--there have been more than just a few amendments to the Sherman Act) are all intended to prevent price fixing, monopolies, restraint of trade, mergers that overwhelm the market, etc. Simply telling someone the range is not, in my humble and unlegal opinion, price fixing.

Further, I think its bit of a stretch to say that all discussions involving commission are intended to or can be construed as price fixing. For example, does just "reading" the NAR report about the "average commissions charged" create an environment intended to violate anti-trust laws--should we all now be charging 5.08% commissions (personally, my new commission will be equal to Pi or 3.14162547...). Probably not, and, frankly, the information is fascinating and shows the direction of real estate to the average reader. Yes, we should not all be agreeing to a specific "commission rate" when we talk (the intention of which is to create a uniform price), but then again, isn't that sort of what larger national real estate firms are doing since they seldom waiver from their commission fee. Yes, they say the price is negotiable, but I would defy you to find a broker in one of these national chains willing to actually negotiate the commission below their narrow window of "acceptable" fees.

So, while I would prefer that conversations of disagreement on any Trulia post be kept civil and professional, I think that the question asked by Germaine is reasonable, and I think that the answers involving providing her with some hard figures are also certainly reasonable. We're certainly not price fixing, and, again, I think a range with explanations does not violate either the spirit or intent of any of the anti-trust laws or their subsequent Acts.

But, of course, I'm no legal expert...just a Realtor from California. Thanks again, Germaine, for the question and to all of my colleagues who responded. You've certainly given me a lot ot think about!

Sincerely,
Grace Morioka, SRES, e-Pro
Area Pro Realty

Why would I want to discuss this in an email so I can be told Trulia will consider what I said?

Why would I post a Question so I can be told it will be discussed by whomever at the next meeting? I asked my questions already and explained why/myview for asking.

Why doesn't Trulia start a Thread and answer some questions about policy, procedures, forms of actions taken, spam ect ?

Dunes,

This is not the place to discuss our moderation. We realize that it's not ideal to remove comments and thus disrupt the flow of conversation. Our removal of posts isn't meant to do this, nor is it meant to protect the individuals who violate our guidelines. If you have suggestions as to how we can improve this situation, please email them to me directly or start a new thread in our Using Trulia category.

Thank you,

Emily Gibson
Community Moderator

Good now we have a polite thread that makes no sense and everybody that had hurt feelings can celebrate victory...

The Forum that helps Consumers see Agents as they really are or as they behave as individuals will have an accurate picture to view....Are the comments removed because they are insults or to protect the image of Agents as a group or individually with the Public?

Are Consumers incapable of judging for themselves?

Hi Everyone,

I'm sure you've all noticed that many recent posts have been removed from this thread. Everyone needs to keep the debate civil. Insulting any community member for any reason is out of line. If you believe that another post is out of line, please report it to us. If you respond in kind you are not helping your own case and are only elevating the argument.

Emily Gibson
Community Moderator

Uh, dude, what part of my post suggested that I suggested you did? I was adding my own suggestion to your suggestions. :)

(Waiting for my thumbs up for my suggestion)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uh DudesstDudgest/Not Dude ... nevermind

My answer was perfect and already contained whatever you thought you should add ; )

(Waiting for my Thumbs up for counter-suggesting your suggestion that my comment needed a suggestion)
Yea that's the ticket!

Fine here's your Thumbs up

I fail to see how reporting on what fees realtors charged over a set period of time is the same thing as realtors getting together and discussing what they should charge as a group. It's historical data. They didn't even report ONE percentage charged, it was 5.08 for this range, 5.4 for that range...It's like saying if the median price of a house in my town was 248,000 over the past year, that if someone asked me what prices are like in my town and I answered "houses are $248,000 here".

JR

What part of what I said suggested you make the decision based on Commission alone?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Uh, dude, what part of my post suggested that I suggested you did? I was adding my own suggestion to your suggestions. :)

(Waiting for my thumbs up for my suggestion)

'then we find there is an average by NAR "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That means the NAR would have charged me 5.20% to sell my house in 2008. I'm glad I did a FSBO, and didn't list with them. ;)

and you should understand
i am not being rude
just trying to tell the truth

John: " I have about 30 years playing in this sand box"..................good, because children should play in sandboxes......................let it go already John...stop acting childish and making a fool out of yourself...your rudeness is uncalled for

"sorry alan
I can not be sweet to you
you have egg on your face" ....................next you'll probably be sticking your tongue out at him..............

and on that note, I, too, will refrain from further comments

Debbie, please go over the facts

Alan
you say there is NO average

then we find there is an average by NAR

and then you claim the our national association is wrong because you Abbie say so

John: "Debbie quotes someone she went to class- hello what is the difference between
DOJ and some one Debbie sat in class with "...........

John for some unknown reason you like to engage and do battle, adn we have met before on other threads. I have tried to be polite, and will continue to do so.

For the record, I'm not 5 years old, going to class and then quoting what the teacher said.....I didn't "go to class"...I studied this subject, discussed it with the CEO of my company, my manager and others higher up in the world of real estate......In reading about thet issue, I found that quote, among many others, that pertain to the Sherman anti trust laws. They apply to all of us, not just in NJ.

I agree to disagree with you, and I won't be drawn into this discussion any further. As I said - it's your prerogative.......chat it up, state all the average commissions you care to talk about...I really doesn't concern me. Others, however, might care about what they say, especially, in a public forum.

Best wishes...........

John,

Fifteen yards for taunting, and while you're walking back you might want to wipe some egg off your own face after your attack post on me.

http://www.trulia.com/voices/Home_em_Selling_em_/I_m_going_t…

It seems ad hominem is your style. You might want to spend more time proofreading your website, and a little less time attacking people. From your site's home page:

"I specialize in the Orladno, Florida area, including: Deltona, Villages, Ocala area. "

This is from an Antitrust ruling case in Arkansas:

"Arkansas real estate professionals should be extremely cautious to never discuss with other brokers, in any setting, commissions which they are charging to their buyer or seller clients."

I would say that "any setting" applies here.

Alan please remove the stir straw before throwing the drink!

John, I have no intention of jousting with you, and won't be treated like a 1st year rookie.

Yes, I was referring to the Sherman Anti Trust laws, I simply called it national because you seemed to feel it applied either solely to New Jersey or Florida.

and with that, John. You and I are done.

and what is NATIONAL ANTI TRUST law?/

might that be something to do with Sherman???

what do know about this?

please state your knowledge about this I have about 30 years playing in this sand box