my agent rocks--he's an old Twins player, and my boss. He's amazing! He's totally down to earth, and super nice. If you want his name, let me know!

Tman makes some good points but there are SO many more things that go in to putting together an offer than was indicated in that entry. Those responses would be quite cogent if there were NO emotions involved in a real estate transaction. From your standpoint perhaps they shouldn't be, but you can't tell people what to think and feel. The fact is, as agents, it's part of our job to lay out several scenarios on the table with their inherent strengths and weaknesses. This allows the buyer (or seller) to assess their level of risk and operate at their OWN comfort level. I don't determine what level of risk is comfortable for my buyer. If I advise them to go low because I think it's a good idea and they lose the house because of a multiple offer or they ticked off the seller, I don't think I'm doing my job. Then my clients would be mad at me because of what I "TOLD" them to do. I don't TELL buyers what to do, I give them the information, good and bad, and allow them to determine where they are comfortable with regard to risk level.

Sammy:

Lots of good advice. Elvis, as always, is especially good. (And Tman, though perhaps slightly harsher than usual, also make some very good points.) So I won't rehash those here. And I (along with others here) appreciated your follow-up and response.

Just a few additional random thoughts:

The market is what it is. Buyers are what they are. And marketing is what it is. In other words, foreclosures and short sales are a fact of life. You may not like them; we may not like them. But they're there, and selling strategies have to recognize that as a fact. I was talking with a woman a week ago who was interested in selling a condo. She initially said it was worth about $350,000. I ran the comps, and there were a couple of foreclosures in her complex for $240,000, and some non-foreclosures that had sold for $260,000. Turned out she knew about the foreclosures, and $350,000 is what units like hers were selling for two years ago. If she wants to sell, she's got to acknowledge the market as it exists today, foreclosures and all.

As for marketing, you say: "we all know that internet saturation is the only real marketing strategy worth using today (and word of mouth)." I don't agree. I do agree that Internet marketing is very important, and that probably a majority of searches start on the Internet. But there are other strategies, too. Direct mail, done properly, can be effective. Newspaper advertising, in the right papers (community and local papers, generally), can be effective. And some you may not have thought of. For instance, one Realtor "secret" is that open houses aren't very effective at selling the house that's open. They're often done to make the seller see some action by his agent. And they're also done to provide leads of buyers to the agent holding the open house. But consider: When there are open houses within a mile or two of your home, those agents are getting leads of potential buyers looking for a nearby home. And maybe that nearby home is yours. So their open houses may be helping sell your home.

You said: "So far I have only learned that my house is worth somewhere between $250,000 and $300,000. I could have told you that." Then you added: "I’ll concede that picking the comps is the tricky part, but I was quite surprised to get such varied reports from these five different agents. In the end, I felt that two of them seemed to have a better understanding of the small nuances specific to St. Louis Park than the others. Incidentally, those two agents gave estimates that were lower than I had hoped but higher than I expected."

A couple of responses: While you knew a general range, you'd be surprised at the number of sellers who don't. So I wouldn't fault the agents for coming in with the comps. But the real value to you was getting informed estimates from the agents who do know your area. And, even more important, that process helped you figure out which agents DID know and understand Saint Louis Park, and which didn't. That's why we all say to interview multiple agents. You're judging their professionalism, the chemistry between the two of you, and their knowledge of your community and type of property. So, from that perspective, I'd say that the process did have some value to you.

Good luck.

Sammy,


There is a lot of consumers out there that feel the same way you do ...

Read on, this is a very enlightening article that every buyer or seller should read ... if nothing else, it will make the good realtors even better.


** .. Why You Can’t Trust Real Estate Agents When Buying A House ..**
http://www.four-pillars.ca/2008/02/18/why-you-cant-trust-rea…

--- Things that your agent might say (and you should ignore) when you are about to put in a bid are:

* “Don’t bid too low or you will offend the sellers”. This is garbage - if the sellers can’t handle a low ball bid then they are unrealistic. And what exactly is a bid that is “too low”? I’m not saying put in an unrealistic bid but don’t be afraid to start lower and work your way up. As I mentioned before it’s important to know the market so that you don’t have to rely on the asking price or your agent to tell you the proper market value of the house.
* “Don’t bid too low or you might offend the selling agent and might I have to work with them in the future”. This stunning example of gall and self-interest was actually told to Mr. Cheap. I don’t think this one needs any further comments. :)
* “You should get a bid in quickly before someone else puts a bid in”. This is a favourite of my agent - create a sense of false urgency, get the deal in motion and get it done ASAP. Sometimes this is good advice but other times - such as when the house has been sitting on the market for a month or longer then it’s just not appropriate.
* “Someone else is looking at the house later today and they are really interested”. This lie usually originates with the selling agent but smart buying agents are usually more than willing to play along because it will increase the chances of their buyer putting in an offer in that day.

--- Negotiation - don’t listen to a word your agent has to say.

At this point you are potentially pretty close to buying a house. You want to buy the house but at the lowest price, the seller wants to sell the house to you but at the highest price and your agent wants you to buy the house and doesn’t care at all what price you buy it for because they just want the deal done right now. Since paying a higher price will get the deal done quicker a lot of agents will encourage you to bid higher which basically means that you are negotiating against them as well as the seller.

--- Things that your agent might say (and you should ignore) when you are negotiating are:

* “Meet them halfway or in the middle”. This sounds quite reasonable at first- if the asking price of a house is $500k and you bid $460k and they come back with $490k then isn’t splitting the difference at $475k quite reasonable? Not if you can get the house for $470k or $465k. The fact is that the asking price of the house and your first bid are very arbitrary numbers and splitting the difference between the two might end up in a price that is not market value.
* “Are you willing to lose this house for $2,000?” (or $5k, $8k) This is a tough one - on the one hand it seems silly to not buy a house and be only a half of a percent away from a deal but on the other hand shouldn’t your agent be asking this question to the seller? Ie - “we are going to walk, do you really want to lose this deal for $2k?”
* “Are you willing to lose this house for $12 a month?” This is part two of the previous point which is applied if you don’t bite on the first attempt. It’s also a more useful gambit if the “separation” is a bit greater. If you and the seller are $12,000 apart then that sounds pretty significant but what if you are only $75 a month apart (for 25 years) or even better what if you are only $63/month apart (over 40 years).
http://www.four-pillars.ca/2008/02/18/why-you-cant-trust-rea…


Remember Sammy, it's your money and your future .....

-

What ELVI!S posted.

Ditto.

This seems so lame after Sammy's post. No doubt the most considerate and thoughtful reply to answers on a thread that I can remember. Good things happen to good people. Good luck Sammy.

Sammy, thank YOU for the thoughtful and thorough reply. So often, here on Trulia, a person posts a question, and we never know if they've even seen any of the answers, let alone what they thought of them, and if they were helpful.

Thanks for that. /:-)

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I recognize that I may have ruffled some feathers by being critical of your industry. Please don’t take it personally, it’s not meant as such. I should probably clarify a couple of things from my original post, though.

I am not disputing that pricing is key. In fact, I think it is more important than ever to get a good market analysis. The useless charts and graphs I referenced are the 30+ pages of redundant information that are extrapolated from the weekly market activity report. I would prefer to just be provided with a copy of that report and a good list of comps – electronically, if possible. I now recognize that it’s a matter of personal preference, but I thought I had made that clear to these folks.

I’ll concede that picking the comps is the tricky part, but I was quite surprised to get such varied reports from these five different agents. In the end, I felt that two of them seemed to have a better understanding of the small nuances specific to St. Louis Park than the others. Incidentally, those two agents gave estimates that were lower than I had hoped but higher than I expected.

It should also be made clear that I am not in a financial situation that is forcing me to sell; I am not being transferred; this is not a short-sale; I have a good mortgage rate and hold only a first. I simply want to sell because I am getting married and we are moving into my fiancée’s house. We would rather not wait 12-36 months for the market to right itself before starting our new lives together. That also negates the argument that I’ll get it back when I purchase my next home because I will be buying low. Again, a great sales pitch when you can use it, but to me it perpetuates the cycle.

The one thing that all of the agents seemed to agree upon, is that the house is staged beautifully (my cousin is an interior designer). In fact, one agent suggested a 5.5% fee (instead of 6%) since staging is part of her marketing package. I will give her full credit for recognizing that you shouldn’t charge for a service you aren’t providing.

With that said, some have you have made some very relatable comments.

Cameron: thank you for acknowledging that things may not be as hopeless as the media have led us to believe. You, and the others who addressed my “average buyer” comment, are right. I failed to recognize that it’s much harder to hit the mark when the bull’s-eye is so small, and I need to look at how to make my house more appealing to a greater cross-section of the population.

Elv!s & Wheels: I see that my statement was poorly written, making it seem like I am looking for an above average buyer. I should have stated that I think my house will appeal to a buyer with a specific set of life circumstances (i.e. – a single young person or couple; someone who values a fenced yard; an individual who appreciates the architectural features specific to the period in which the home was built). Jennifer & Susan both picked up on my point there. Wheels: you completely missed the mark on that one. By no means, did I try to suggest that the “specific” buyer I am looking for is a millionaire.

Rockinblu: Good point on the FSBO comment. I don’t see it as a very practical option for me, since I don’t have the time nor the tools to sell a home myself, but I might consider Webdigs. Interestingly, I haven’t looked at the stats, but I think fewer people are choosing the FSBO option these days.

Jackie: I think, overall, you have the best response to my “rant”. You seem to have a thorough understanding of challenges specific to St. Louis Park. Even though there are foreclosures all over the place, they are much fewer and farther between in SLP. I think what compounds the problem is that BUYERS don’t see SLP any differently than any other city – they are looking for bargains all over, and they are finding them. That’s the crux of my rant. I have this voice deep inside that says “I don’t have to give my house away” and some people are proving it. I spoke with a recent seller who turned down two lowball offers, held on for another 22 days and got the asking price (no seller contribution). Total DOM: 120. That tells me that SLP is still a demand market, so I shouldn’t have to take 8% off the estimated market value to figure out my selling price.

Best,
Sammy

Sammy: I am sorry that you are discouraged. Sometimes real estate agents have a hard time in today's market selling their own homes, especially with the changes regarding the values of real estate. If you are in a difficult financial situation Minnesota Home Ownership Center may have a few pointers - http://www.hocmn.org 651-659-9336 or 866-462-6466. They have some tips about talking with your lender as well.

1) The buyers decide the value of your home and there is no guarantee that the agent can get it right. Some agents do come in high to "buy the listing" but I'm seeing that less in this market. The presentations are meant to explain what the market is doing and what to expect from them... it is important that a seller and the agent have the same understanding from Day 1.

2) Foreclosures and short sales are a part of this market and will be for at least another 1-2 years. While your house is worth more than a foreclosure or short, it's value can be dramatically impacted by the competition from those properties. If you're buying a new house, you'll enjoy that competition on the buy side. When 1 in 4 sales in the Twin Cities today is a foreclosure or short sale, it is competition. I should know, I cowrote the research paper on this phenomenon in the Twin Cities.

Further, the numbers are clear: when you overprice your house and it sits on the market a long time, buyers will discount your house and will continue to discount it even when you make one or more price reductions. A "tired listing" is a sure way to get much less for the house than you could have when you first listed it. Most buyers will see your house in the first 2-4 weeks it is one the market. If you've had a lot of showings and no offers, you are overpriced! Simple as that...

3) Yay! You get it! Most agents leave this in their presentations though because many consumers expect it still and they don't know you yet so they come in with what assures them of covering all the bases.

4) What is your goal? To sell your house quickly, to sell your house in a moderate amount of time, or to not sell your house until this market comes back? Buyers have a lot to choose from and rarely is a house "perfect" for a buyer... every buyer I've worked with has had something that wasn't right for them. If you are looking to get the "perfect buyer" so you can get the "perfect price," you will be disappointed.

Many of us (myself included) are full time. We do this dozens of times per year and spend every day practicing our craft. I'd have a hard time believing that all 5 agents don't understand what it will take to sell your property. We're professionals and we do things a certain way because our years of experience have shown that it works. You can argue with an attorney about details and suggest some courses of action but at the end of the day, it behooves you to follow the attorney's advice. The same is true here!

Hi Sammy - I hope you find the real estate agent and/or Realtor that restores your faith in our profession. Yes, I agree with you, a lot of us spend a lot of time and money on marketing materials, but for some sellers that is what they want to see.

We tailor our marketing plan/presentation according to our client's need. Some may prefer pictures and charts, others may prefer data - most of the time our clients are referrals and we may not know which style suits them best.

St. Louis Park is one of the better markets in the metro area. A lot of buyers like the school system, the easy access to highways, the parks, and entertainment options it offers. Your location and condition of home will determine the price.

Where I see the challenge w/ most homes is that Buyers have higher expectations now – for example, when we bought our first home - we bought it for its potential and we remodeled it to our liking (we did the work and we paid for it). Many buyers today want it all done before they move in and they want it for LESS. They are the DRIVERS right now. One of the best services an agent can offer its client (buyer or seller) is not really seen until an offer is on the table – it is up to the agent to work with the offer to ensure a win-win.

Most of us in the business believe (contrary to the media's take of "the sky is falling" - they sell sensationalism) that bottom has hit and we are slowly climbing back up.

I know you will find the person that you can trust will do a great job in meeting your needs. These days it takes patience and an agent that believes in your home and will do their very best to market the home so it gets sold in the fastest time, for the most money, with the least hassles!

Best of luck to you Sammy!

Hi Sammy!

As a licensed broker and marketing specialist, I know agents too often take full responsibity for pricing homes. As a realtor, our job is to present to you current homes on the market, recent sells in the market and those listings that are currently available. We provide the information so that you can make an education decision on what price you feel most comfortable with. Don't expect the agent to give the final determination of pricing. You make a good judgement based on the information that has been presented to you.

One suggestion I have is to make sure that you visit the homes that are currently available for sale in your neighborhood. This will make you aware of "your" competition and encourage you to price your home competitively. Your agent should however properly manage the sale of your home and give it its MAXIMUM EXPOSURE.

Sammy, if you want to sell your house it needs to be priced correctly, listed on the MLS, and be visable on the internet. The order I have listed is key. You can market all day long, and you will not sell without the home being priced right. If you are not on the MLS, your home will not be seen. Internet is a very important step, but comes in 3rd on the list.

" I wonder if there is someone out there who is willing to truly represent my best interest and help me find the right buyer for my house instead of trying to fit the average buyer into my house?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You. Try doing a FSBO. If you fail, and need to turn to a Realtor, you will be even more sympathetic and undrestanding of the problems they face in this environment. Check out the thread attached to the link below. It will be more coherent if you start from the first post at the bottom.

BTW, I thought that Jennifer,Cameron, and ELV!S's posts were outstanding. I wish I would of had one of them as a listing agent. However, with the one I started with that eventually lead me to do a FSBO, I did find that selling your own home can sometimes be fun and rewarding.

http://www.trulia.com/voices/answer/Home_Selling/How_do_you_…

I hope this link works now. At the first posting it didn't.

Although the agents that you interviewed have used fancy, and informative, (I hpe) tools, the bottom line is that you should feel some kind of rapport with the agent that you choose. In this difficult market, the best tool, is pricing. There is no guarantee any more that a property will sell, or sell quickly. Pricing is important, and the length of time that you have to sell should be a deciding factor. You will probably get a lowball offer, so your price should allow room to negotiate. No doubt, internet is a very valuable asset in selling a home, but bottom line, is you have to get them in the door to see it., and when they get there your home shome should be neat, clean and smell (very inportant!) nice. The fancy paperwork comes in here, they can take home a beautiful reminder of your home. The realtor that you do choose will have first allegiance to you to represent you in the most beneficial way. Good luck, keep looking! Kris Jaume

I wish i lived in St Louis to help you out... Seeing i dont i can tell you thati have to agree in alot of senses. When you have a realtor come over you need to tell them what you want, what you expect and see if they have the same thinking as you. Be straight forward. Your best bet is to ask people you know, who did they use, who are they happy with and find a realtor that has made them happy. Word of mouth is always teh best way. Dont look at the biiggest because bigger isnt always better. Family offices and leading Independant Realtors often will gove you more personal time, effort and what you are looking for.

After interviewing five agents, your question (statement?) seems to indicate that you don't see any value in hiring a Realtor. Let me make sure I understand your points.

#1 says that the 5 agents spent too much on materials, charts & graphs trying to impress you, but they didn't come up with a tight-enough consensus on your price, to give you a clear direction.

#2 indicates that there are lots of foreclosures, et al, messing up the market and causing people to "underprice".

#3 says you're convinced the only place to market is on the internet, and of course, word of mouth

#4 asks whether there is some agent out there who will truly represent your best interests, I guess just reiterating your original statement.


Pricing is not an exact science. It's a combination of skill, expertise and experience in the market, sometimes with a little bit of "gut" thrown in for good measure. If your home is not a cookie-cutter home, it's no surprise that 5 different agents would come up with 5 different prices. It's up to each of them to bring supporting documentation (comparables) to shore up their price, and up to you to determine which of the 5 you feel is most believable.

That foreclosures & short sales have messed up markets is a big "d'uh!". What do you think the newspapers have been headlining for the last years?? It makes it just as difficult for Realtors to accurately price homes as anyone else.

And while we (Realtors) tend to agree that the best marketing money is spent on the internet, most (90%) consumers still want print ads and brochures, so in an effort to appease the consumers, we continue to pour money into those arenas. I'm sure any one of those 5 Realtors would be thrilled to hear you say "I don't want you to spend any of my marketing money anywhere other than the internet".

If you're still not happy with those 5, keep looking. Don't settle for mediocre (or worse). But if the reason you're not satisfied with the 5 you've seen thus far, is because they're marketing to the "average buyer", then you're making a mistake. It's a Realtor's job to expose your property to the largest market out there... and the largest market is the "average buyer".

Hi, Sammy!
I'm an exclusive buyer agent, so I have no stake in listing your home. I used to work for another company that did listings. The fact is, it is in your best interests to have a comprehensive marketing plan that is executed based on what seems to yield the highest return on the investment. That's what all of those charts were about, letting you know which types of marketing provided results. The listing agent would not be doing a good job for you if they didn't try to appeal to the broadest spectrum of buyers possible. So, while I agree that a goal about what type of buyer will most likely buy your property is a good idea, it would seem prudent on the agent's part to market to more than just one sector. And, it's possible your agent will not be the one to bring the buyer through your house directly. You are hiring an agent and a company to MARKET your home to appeal to a wide range out there so, hopefully, the other 10,000 or so agents in the Twin Cities will see it and bring their buyers to your property to purchase.

Hi Sammy,

I understand your frustration as I see it everyday. It's great that you realize the power of the Internet and that most print advertising is dead. When I interview with an owner to list a home, I either get someone who understands this, or one who insists that print advertising be done. At this point I explain to them my little print experiment I conducted in 2007. I advertised in three different real estate magazines in the Twin Cities for the full year to see how many homes I would sell, get calls off, etc. You know what, for the thousands of dollars I spent on these pretty pieces, I got ZERO calls off the ads.

Now go to the Internet, where I have been building my web precense for two years, and low and behold, I am getting emails and phone calls off my listings every day. I cross market on the Internet via my four blogs, website, Trulia, and other networks. Funny thing is, there are so many agents out there that just think the Internet is a waste of time.

When a home is marketed, an agent really needs to look at what type of buyer will purchase the home. Will it be a first time home buyer, retired couple, young, urban, etc. Then the agent will have to look at where they can target that audience. Too many agents just put a home in the MLS, let there company do some amazing print advertising, and then just sit and wait for the home to sell.

While I am sure all these agents you have interviewed had good intentions at representing your best interest, you just haven't found someone who fits your personality. Don't get discouraged, everything will work out. You know what you want and who knows, you could find it here from Trulia!

Sammy,

1. Agents will differ in opinion on price. The range you have presented is understandable. I doubt however the all of the agents gave you the same range. Some were higher and some were lower depending on their impression of the house. You have now boiled it down to the highest and lowest number that you received to make it look like the agents didn't have any idea.

2. Your observation here is keen. It has less to do with foreclosures than it does with market saturation as a whole. Supply and demand my friend.

You did miss one major issue however and that is the media's obsession with reporting on how terrible the real estate market is. You didn't hear anything about it, but this last month we start to see some leveling in the markets around the country. Curious!

The majority of sellers want to sell quickly so they can stop dealing with the hassle of showing, hence the underpricing.

3. No one piece of a marketing plan will deliver results to every home seller. You can spend a fortune on internet campaigns and in the end some houses sell because of the sign in the front yard. Don't focus too much on one aspect of the marketing campaign, but rather, you should focus on whether or not the agent will bring all the different types of marketing together effectively. If you are concerned about internet marketing, try to find an agent who is e-pro certified (which I am not, sorry).

4. The average buyer increases the demand for the house. Focusing on one particular segment of any market reduces demand and increase time and ultimately reduces price.

You will be inundated with responses of agents will to help. Good luck.

Cameron Piper