It is about time:) Thanks for the link - I knew about it, but hadn't seen that write up:)

Seattle area's major real estate companies share open house details

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/407778_openhouse02.html

I allow all opens posted to the MLS to hit my site. I also post all my opens to the NWMLS. In fact last week, a Redfin buyer found our open house through the Redfin site. I think more exposure is better when it comes to listings and want them out there.

The answer is that agents aren't trying to sabotage their listings. Most agents list public open houses on the Multiple Lising Service; it has a public site on which you can download the information on open houses. Additionally, most agents list on their company sites, for example John L. Scott. The public can also download from that site. All listings that are available will be in both locations.

Hi Shawn,

With respect, it would seem that your assumpions are incorrectly based. Please note that I am not criticzing you however, as this isn't your fault.

Anyone coming into this thread at this particular point in time might well get the wrong idea from reading only what's left, without the rest of the information to see the whole thing in context. There were a LOT of posts that were (thankfully) deleted by the admins - all of which happened before you got to this thread.

So - I do understand that my comments may now appear - without the original context - that I am guilty of "personal attacks", rather than defending someone who was being needlessly attacked.

I certainly agree with you that this is a public forum. And we do have basic community guidelines, which we are expected to follow, more or less. So, it's not quite a "free for all" here ...

Anyway - have a GREAT WEEKEND. The weather is finally nice here and we're heading out!

Nat and Kevin,

I just want to say that I enjoyed reading your posts and I do not consider your points repetitive or irrelevant. This is a public forum where differing opinions can be shared and for all us to read and make our own decisions. Suppressing or deleting messages or posts just because we don't agree with them or because we find them annoying/repetitive goes against the principle of a forum.

If we are going to base it on personal attacks then Jefferson, by our your own writings below, you have also thrown your share of them, so you are far from being innocent. So ahead and attack me, call me "troll" if you wish, but please do not suppress the right for everyone to express their opinion here.

Hi Nat,

You are jousting windmills. This thread is just like an 8-track tape ... it just goes around and around with the same outdated tune.

Unfortunately, Steve is one of those "Trolls dressed up as a would-be buyer". He merely has his own agenda, and most of it has already been deleted by the Admins.

The best thing would be for all of us to just delete all of our posts, and leaving this an empty shell with his rantings.

I'm a Queen Anne Native and Resident and I've been a licensed real estate agent (notice I didn't say REALTOR) and member of NWMLS for 17 years. The last 2 listings of mine I sold this year were on Queen Anne, none of them were REDFIN buyers, they all had agents and it was not due to OPEN HOUSE. It was due mostly to PRICE (Incidentally, both were short sales). In this market, it's all about price. If you want to get it sold, you have to price it right. It doesn't matter what website you put it in, it's not going to sell if it's not priced right. It's simply supply and demand now.

BUT WHEN I DID HOLD OPEN HOUSES, I did utilize the NWMLS & Zillow and inputed that a SUNDAY OPEN HOUSE was being held. I also use postlets & craigslist to advertise. I always query (pre-qualify) the people that come through the open house about where they found out about it and it was either via REDFIN or Zillow or some other website that took the NWMLS OPEN HOUSE feed. I used to pay $100 for a Sunday ad in the Seattle Times/PI, but because of the internet and Craigslist this is no longer necessary, which is why the P.I. newspaper (I was a subscriber till the end) had to fold due to lack of advertising revenue which comes a lot from real estate. Many agents I've queried are unaware about posting the open house on NWMLS and some brokerage websites don't post the information. Why would you want to advertise a competing broker's open house, wouldn't you want them to come to the open houses of the listings you actually had for sale (signed contracts called listings)?

REALTOR.COM a for-profit website ran by a third party for the Realtors used to get all the listing information for FREE from NWMLS and the broker members of NWMLS voted to not give the feed for free, but left it the choice of the individual brokers. Not every agent is a REALTOR and therefore, realtor.com doesn't have all the listings on their websites. NWMLS is a non-REALTOR-owned MLS. Most of the public and real estate agents themselves don't know the difference between a REALTOR and a real estate agent.

I let my sellers know the pitfalls about OPEN HOUSES. I tell them the truth. National Association or Realtors/NAR statistics are 1% of the homes sell at an open house. So then why do agents do them, to get business. It may not be the most efficient way of getting business but in this market it's a good way to meet buyers. I prefer to do BROKERS OPEN HOUSES for other real estate agents to see the home. WHY? Real estate agents work with pre-approved/pre-qualified REALISTIC buyers. Public open houses are for lookiloo's to see how others live or they could be thieves or drug dealers. Thieves get to case out the security weaknesses or the drug-users raid the medicine cabinets for prescription drugs. Sometimes they work in teams in order to distract the agent while the team member does the thievery. I ask my sellers, which do they prefer? Pre-qualified buyers or leave the house on the weekend for non-prequalified lookiloo's/thieves/junkies whom have no intention of buying to come and tour your house for other reasons?

When pre-qualifying the open house attendees, I always ask if they're a neighbor, do they know of somebody that'd like to move into the area, or if they rent or own, and then I ask if they've talked to a lender or are working with an agent and when possible ask them to sign a guest sheet for security purposes and my marketing purposes and to see where the attendees are coming from (newspaper, door knocking prior to open house, flyer, craigslist, etc...). Sales is a numbers game and I need to track my numbers in order to track my progress, as well as, to inform my clients (those I have signed contracts with, usually sellers unless there's a buyer's brokerage agreement signed).

In summary, if you price the home right it will sell since everybody (websites) has access to the information, with or without an open house (be it advertised in some form or fashion). I remember 10 years ago an internet guru said real estate agents will no longer be necessary because of the upcoming XML. The reason agents due open houses is to get business and maybe get it sold, but the good homes priced right and provide value for the buyer sell quickly without an open house. It's not a company or a website that gets a home sold, it's the individual agent's activities, but if it's not priced right in this market it won't sell quickly.

This is a "selfish" policy of many brokerages. The idea behind it is that if they are spending time and money to advertise their open house, why would they want to potentially attract a buyer through a competitor's website or competitor's agent.

Given that the job of the listing agent is to gain the broadest market possible for their listing, these policies run contrary to the best interests of their sellers.

The Northwest MLS has the capability to enter and publish open house information, but until brokerages stop the policy of hoarding their own open house data, the situation won't change in the Puget Sound. The solution would be an MLS regulation that requires all open houses to be entered and requires all brokers to display the information.

thanks Matt.. Yes, we were quoting different stats.

Steven, you keep making claims but won't check your facts. All I can do at this point is sigh and shake my head in disbelief.

About the numbers... Dugald and I can both be right. As a brokerage Redfin does have single digit market share while Windermere has the most market share of any brokerage in Seattle. Windermere, of course, has many many more agents than Redfin.

About entering open house times into the NWMLS. Some brokerages (like Redfin) use the NWMLS provided Rapattoni interface which enables agents to enter open house times. Other brokerages use a proprietary interface instead. I believe both JLS and Windmere don't use the Rapattoni interface. It's my understanding that these other interfaces don't let their agents put their open house times in the NWMLS, only on their own sites. However, I've never actually seen the JLS or Windermere interfaces so this is just what I've heard. Also, I have spoken to some senior WIndermere folks who indicated that Windermere will likely be changing their open house input system soon.

Alrighty, back to Easter fun.

Steven S,

You are so far out of the community terms of service here that it's ridiculous.

How can you *possibly* separate what you say about my business practices being "dishonest and unethical" from personal insults? That's a rhetorical question.

...and to now claim that you are reacting to insults is laughable. You have thrown insults at me, Brian Lovell, Loretta, and even Brian C who apparently is an innocent bystander yet you claim he is someone else. That's a 4:1 send to receive ratio.

At this point, your posts are just repetitive and by using my name so many times, you are quite patently attempting bring this conversation up in the search results to simply hurt my business.

...and we haven't even met.

To be honest, the posts are so outlandish in their claims that it might actually help my business.

You have made your point multiple times, I have made mine at least four times. Others have made similar points. You do so from the comfort of an alias (maybe two - are you Gecko as well?) and I do so with full disclosure of who I am. Who are people really going to believe? The one with nothing at stake or the guy with something at stake?

..and I love the Gecko alias. Firing up insults at agents with nothing but a high school diploma - yet his profile looks like it was created for the purposes of commenting on the blog - and he's listed as an agent!!! That's funny!

...and just to be sure you understand. ...and just to make sure this point is *crystal* clear: you are mistaken in your assumptions - which you call "undisputable facts." You are mistaken as to what NWMLS open house publishing options are available to me as a Windermere agent. This has not been contradicted by anyone but you, not even Matt from Redfin. He simply says he wishes it were so.

But you can't possibly know the facts without investigating them. You have likely never even seen an NWMLS listing input screen or "revise listing" menu or the back end of the NWMLS where you think we can do these things. People thought the world was flat and we were the center of the universe until someone *showed* otherwise. If you know your history, that was undisputable, too. People were burned at the stake for suggesting otherwise. That's what you are trying to do here. The problem is that your match is wet and your arguments are fuel for nothing. The problem is that the proof of what I say can be found quite easily and you refuse to shift from your dogma.

To paraphrase Shakespeare: your arguments and argumentative posts come across as a "poor player strutting across the stage - full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing."

This has long ceased to be a discussion about your original question.

It is time to end this.

Happy Easter to All (yes, you too, Steven)

I stand corrected. Thanks Matt.

Hi Steven,

Matt from Redfin here again.

I totally agree that agents should be sharing their open times with the MLS. I think it benefits everyone; more traffic to houses for home owners and agents, and makes it easier for customers to find open houses.

With regards to Zillow. Actually Zillow does not get their listings from the MLS, instead they get their listings directly from the brokerages and home owners. While at one point they did belong to MLSes, they didn't receive listings from them, and they have recently given up all their MLS affiliations: http://www.inman.com/news/2008/11/5/zillow-gives-most-broker…

I also very much disagree that Redfin agents are less experienced. The reason is that if you look at all the home closes in the NWMLS for March (or really any month, quarter or year) and sort by number of deals you'll find that all of Redfin's agents are in the top 2%. By negotiating more deals in a month than the majority of agents in Seattle it's hard to argue they're less experienced.

I gotta run, have a good Easter everyone.

Steven,

Now you are simply being nasty, vindictive and childish. Per your own words - all his mls listings are already on "Steve's favorite Site". Ok fine - that's 90+% of marketing for houses today anyway - not open houses.

Instead of moving on. What's your next step? You are now yelling at the top of your lungs his name 14 - that's FOURTEEN times in your last post. Andy why? To what end? You could have no possible motive at this juncture for your behavior than to simply be trying to cause harm to someone that has a PERFECTLY VALID business point for what he is doing. And he's not the only one who thinks that way - so you might as well use My Name in his place - because I AGREE. It doens't help your arguement in the least.

Boo hoo - the world doesn't revolve around poor little Steven - who is crying that he wants ALL Open Houses listed with Site X - while stomping up and down with what is no longer even the slightest hint of a valid discussion on the facts. And so now what? You childishly throw his name around again and again - that demonstrates the nature of YOUR CHARACTER - not his. GROW UP.

Congratulations! You have eradicated any good that you might have achieved for your discussion, by discrediting yourself by your incredibly poor behavior. I would not be in the least surprised if you also created the brand new Gecko profile - merely to 'egg yourself on". We are NOT impressed, Sir!

Do you work for Redfin? Sounds like a plug. Anyway, I think we should be open and share our success with others and try to glean as much goodness as we can from each realestate company. We should all work together with kindness and pursue goodness in all of our endeavors.

Well my wife said I am on my own for this one...Thanks for the analogy on JC Penny, I see your point and it is valid, however there is another picture being missed. So I do still respectfully disagree. It's ok to disagree, right? I'm only trying to voice my opinion is all. I just see both sides of the coin and feel any business that provides the needed information will probably get the traffic. If I, for example, in my business gave access of my architectural design to another company guess what, they will likely get some fees for it and maybe even take future business from me. True they could sell the one design I made, and I may even make some more sales and royalties for it for all I know. But it would likely have a negative impact on my future business as now those clients will go to my competitor over coming directly to me. That’s where I earn my reputation and my name.

Here is another way to look at it, on the web if my company name shows up on someone’s web site 1000 times then each search engine will be more likely to pull up my competitor’s web site then it might on mine. Each time my product or name is on another company’s web site I will start to lose that future business.

I'm only saying that from a consumer side your point does makes a ton of since. I totally agree there, but from a business side, you really have to understand the business side; giving all your information to any competition could cause your future business to be passed onto someone else.

Well, point said I just respectfully see both sides and don't agree with the point of "sabotaging their own listings". It seems a little strong of a phrase. If my realtor gets the home sold at a price that matters to me, then more power to them for getting more traffic to their site and driving more business.

As a practical matter there are a lot of sites that don't get many eyeballs. I'd actually prefer a system that gets all my open houses (and listings) out to all the various sites without having to do what we do now.

That said, an agent can't possibly hit every site. For listings I use Realtor.com and then the Keller Williams listing service and Postlets.com, the last two of which go out to multiple sites. So that means more work, because every listing needs to be entered three times and changed three times with every change to the listing. Just being able to enter it once, to the NWMLS, and then have it go out automatically would be great. And it would be nice if it were the same for open houses. You never know when the least visited site will bring in that buyer.

Jefferson and James, I agree with all of your points. What you don't understand is that Dugald Allen is not JC Penny. Dugald Allen is a marketing company hired by JC Penny to make sure that as many people as possible know about JC Penny's grand opening. If JC Penny knew that Dugald Allen had access to a system that would provide FREE access to a multitude of websites, even some competitor's websites like Macys, to promote JC Penny's grand opening, and didn't use this resource; they would fire Dugald Allen in a heartbeat. Dugald Allen's marketing plan, instead, is to put his JC Penny grand opening info on dugaldallen.com in hopes that potential JC Penny grand opening customers will use Dugald Allen for their future marketing opportunities. Never mind the fact that dugaldallen.com draws 1/100 the page views as Macys.com.

To your point James, "Now, the best solution would be to have a site that is neutral to all parties, no one company is the head company."
The NWMLS is just that neutral company. Numerous websites aggregate information they receive from the MLS and redistribute that information in whatever format they wish. Redfin is one, as is Trulia, Zillow, and even competing brokerage companies. Dugald Allen has chosen not to share this information with many neutral websites like Trulia and Zillow. Websites which have no association with any real estate brokerages and offer no threat to Duglad Allen's business. When Dugald Allen makes the decision FOR HIS CLIENTS to not share information with the MLS, he does not hurt his own business, he hurts the sales prospects for his clients. While Dugald Allen sits patiently waiting to make his 3%, his seller has to make another 4 mortgage payments because a potential buyer did not see this home.

Dugald, you seem preoccupied with the fact that very few people are using Redfin agents to buy their homes. this is your justification for not posting your information to the MLS (and the fact that you have to make more then one click.) This FACT makes your position even that much more indefensible. The "business decision" you are making, by you own words is to ignore marketing opportunities FOR YOUR CLIENTS which offer a "HUGE volume" of eyeballs because you fear that potential future clients may decide to use Redfin instead of you. A likelihood of exactly 1.3% based on numbers you provide. As I have stated numerous time, and Terrence Chen has also reiterated, most of the people who use the Redfin website end up buying without a Redfin agent. As you have so kindly pointed out as well. So are finally beginning to understand how your fear is unfounded, and how this unfounded fear is a hinderance to doing the most good for your clients. You have a fiduciary duty to market and sell your clients home. To ignore that duty for your own self-serving business practices is dishonest and unethical, and that is a FACT.

Steve S, thanks for the summary of why I've been getting so many email alerts on this thread!

Hopefully I can end such emails by deselecting that option with this post!

I have been reading this thread for the past hour, instead of getting my work done :). While I find it very entertaining, I had to chime in as a recent home buyer in an area served by Redfin. My wife and I used the Redfin website quite extensively in our search for our new home. We listed our previous home with a realtor friend who isnot associated with Redfin. We made our purchase with this same realtor friend, who was still not assosciated with Redfin. That being the case, every search we made for over 6 months began at the Redfin website. As Steven has been saying, and others have observed as well, Redfin's website organizes their information in a very appealing package that we found the most productive for our search. Of course if we found any properties of interest to us, we would go the listing companies website to see if additional information was available. But we very easily could have missed many open house opportunities at houses we were on the fence about simply because we did not know they were open. it was only after reading this blog that I know of thispractice of withholding open house information from competing websites. Although I may not have presented my argument quite as strongly as Steven, I do appreciate his making this practice known to me. It never even occurred to us when we were listing our house to check and see if our agent sent the open house information to the MLS. I just assumed this was standard practice. So, while I do see Dugard's point, I would not want to drive my customers to a competitor's website either, I also see Steven's poitn about mmaking sure the most number of people see your marketing information. Can both of you be right? As a consumer, I can say I would prefer that my listing gets maximum exposure.

Hi Steven,

Over the past day or so, my wife and I, have read through most the comments. I think you have some good points and all but overall, we tend to agree with Jefferson. If you are in the business to make a living then you want to drive all the business to your site. If you have a competitor site that holds information you have to separate yourself by providing information that is not available on competition. I don’t recall any one company in any industry that puts all there information on a their competitions web site. Would you find a Grand Opening for JCPenny on a Macys web site? No I wouldn’t think so. I don’t think there is a car dealer that lists everyone else’s vehicles to try and get you to buy theirs. Possibly some site out there grabs the information you got me on that one.

Now, the best solution would be to have a site that is neutral to all parties, no one company is the head company. I am sure there are some sites out there some of which apparently have been mentioned but I have no idea what they would be for open houses. We believe that getting upset with someone for doing good for their business might be overkill. Maybe anyway, just our take on it from a consumer point of view.

OK, truly last word here for me.

Some **facts**...

You state that I can enter my public open house into the NWMLS. Your facts are wrong. period. I have told you this now four times and you seem to gloss over this **fact.** I have even offered to spend my valuable time and **show** you. You could have even reported your findings back to this blog. You have refused to do so. Fact.

You think I am being unethical by not advertising on a site that can't show that they are driving buyers to my listing. Your fave web site is bringing only single digit buyers to the table versus (at a minimum) 75% coming to me from other sources. ...sources who do not advertise my open houses, either.

Here are the **facts** I just now pulled data from the NWMLS system: In the past 12 months (4/1/08~4/1/09) 447 buyers closed transactions using your fave - out of the total 35,100 sales in King, Pierce and Snohomish County = 1.3%. Fact. 1184 buyers chose just the one WIndermere brokerage with whom I associated. Fact.

Using these numbers and drawing the obvious conclusion, I am statistically 2.6 times better off if I were to market ONLY to the agents in my brokerage versus posting something on your fave web site. I market well beyond my brokerage. Fact.

...so why would I expend time (=$) to try to find a way to advertise an open house on a site that brings only 1.3% of the buyer pool to the table? The listing itself is already there. How is that hurting me or my client?

That was - and is - my point. You continue to quote me out of context and you have no downside to being wrong as you haven't identified yourself. You indeed started this downward spiral with your initial assertion that I was being self-serving. I am not.

You suggested that I am trying to harm myself by trying to not sell something for which I'm paid. I don't practice masochism.

...well, except to write on blogs... obviously!

Hi Steven,

My position, again, is that of a non-professional - my business is not Real Estate. I didn't even know what Redfin was until a week ago. However, I have examined the facts at hand and done the research. Mr. Allen is quite correct.

Please allow me to quote the following, directly from Redfin's site:

QUOTE FROM REDFIN
In major metropolitan areas, our own agents deliver fanatical customer service and a commission refund of 50%; elsewhere you can work with Redfin partner agents whose client references we have carefully screened, for a commission refund of 15%.
END QUOTE

More info at this source: http://www.redfin.com/real-estate-agents

Again - Mr. Allen is quite correct to take the position that "he doesn't wish to post his listings or open houses to a Competitor's Site". I CAN appreciate your view also as a consumer - to provide an existing listing or open house with maximum exposure. But, as an objective business decision, it makes perfect sense for him or any other agent to not wish to list with Redfin or any other site that has it's own agents.

I even understand the implications. Let's say that once a customer is already signed with him, that he COULD list open houses or whatever with redfin. One might say, "Hey what's the risk - he's already got the listing, right? So, why not do it - isn't this better for his customer? So ... what's the risk"?

The risk is the following - were he to do so, he would be indirectly (at the very least) helping a competitor to his company. In the long run, this could be damaging to his business.

Coldwell Banker doesn't list on Keller Williams and visa-versa. They BOTH list on realtor.com and Trulia. You - as a consumer - WISH in most emphatic terms that they would also list on Redfin. But ...

Your arguement is predicated from the standpoint that Redfin is some kind of totally independent resource that is available to all, with favors toward none. Were this true - If Redfin were similar in nature to realtor.com, trulia.com, yahoo.com, msn.com, etc - then I would Agree that "yes - everyone should list their stuff on Redfin and have no reason not to". Redfin is not an independent resource. Again - they are NOT. Why is this so? Simple - they have their own agents and a partner program.

I do agree that Redfin has created a really cool site, and have little doubt that others will follow in providing them in various look / feel / features. But - they aren't "just another place to list your stuff".

Steven - with respect - I disagree with the vehement position taken against Mr. Allen. But not you personally. I am doing so based on the facts at hand, all without the slightest personal motivation as my business isn't real estate associated in any way.

Best regards,

Jeff

Actually, Steven, if you had read - in detail - my responses, you would see that I have answered every one of your questions. You simply refuse to accept that my views may, in fact, be rooted in business decisions made by me to service my clients in the most efficient and effective way.

I don't care to spend hours explaining my actions on a web site when I can spend ten or fifteen minutes explaining directly to you my position - I even offered to buy you coffee. It's all about efficiency and effectiveness. I would have shown you the MLS screens where I control the information for a listing and you may have even come to understand a little more. You chose to reject this offer, becoming more and more belligerent and insulting as each post progressed.

It is obvious you just wanted a fight for the purposes of having a fight.

For example, you seem to have missed the **fact** that most agents in the Seattle area cannot send out an open house through the MLS with a click of a button. Yet you accept someone else's assertion otherwise. I would have shown you what I have access to and what I do not. You could have clicked around the site yourself.

That you wish open house listings were on Redfin is your desire. One day it will probably happen. It's not the holy grail. It's a web site that you like.

...and if you blame me for wanting people to come to my web site, then you are **truly** naive as to any web site's purpose. Its purpose is to generate business and market products - here, real estate. Why else would we spend the money creating them? You just twisted that statement around and made an incorrect assumption with out-of-context quotes. Of course I want potential clients to find me online!!! That can't come as a surprise to anyone.

Do you think your favorite site is all about you? (rhetorical question) No! they won't exist for very long unless someone uses their services. The **purpose** of their web site is to drive traffic to their agents. Yet you assert that my attempt to do the same is objectionable and unethical. huh?

Think about this concept: Amazon.com doesn't drive people to buy.com or Barnes & Noble or vice versa. ...and if you did find a link, I guarantee they're taking a cut.

Ethics? You're hardly one to make charges.

That you hide behind a keyboard with a partially hidden name and reject offers to meet is disgraceful, cowardly and representative of the very worst of the blog world. Click on my profile. Since before the very first post, it has contained my direct contact information.

Your actions provide a perfect explanation why some who wish to assist others in these kinds forums opt out. You miss out on a lot of expertise. You drive it away.

That you refuse to try to come to terms with the concept of an opposing opinion to yours without making ethics charges and repeating my name over and over again in some vain attempt at punishing me in the search engines is, well, childish.

Sincerely,

Dugald Allen

It's not as simple as you state it to be, Jefferson. If this were simply a case of consumer choice, I would have left well enough alone. It is not. We have a situation where agents like Dugald Allen purposefully omit specific information about their listings from sites where those listings would be getting the most exposure because Dugald Allen wants potential future clients to go to his own personal website. Having just sold my home, I find this practice particularly despicable because it is patently dishonest. If we were talking about a simple oversight on the part of agents like Dugald Allen, then I would be quick to apologize and be on my way, having stated my opinion on the subject. However, Dugald Allen has made very clear that there was no oversight, but a malicious intent to sabotage his listings for personal gain. He makes no apologies for his actions, but vigorously defends them. All the while making no factual arguments of why his position is in the right.

I really don't care how my message is received by the real estate agents who populate this site. I was simple curious to the thought process and motivation behind this practice. I found that with most honest agents, it was simply oversight, or not understanding the technology. Not so with Dugald Allen. Unethical practices by agents like Dugald Allen are highly inappropriate and worth discussing. It is curious that when I use his own words to rebut himself, he wants nothing more to do with the public discussion.

Steven,

I have watched this now from the sidelines for a bit, as it has been mostly entertaining. I have no idea as to why you are actively choosing to be so inflamatory. Perhaps you are having a bad week? Perhaps there is some personal issue that is stressing you out and this is a "harmless release" for you? Perhaps you actually have some personal motive somehow related to redfin, as some have conjectured? What do I think? I don't know. I'm not even sure why I care enough to write this - except that I am tired of watching you bash a good realtor over the head publically, without good cause.

I do agree with the idea that, "it would be really nice if more agents were fully aware of - and would leverage - every possible advantage for their sellers" - by using all the latest sites, etc - especially those that are free. Where these resources do cost money to be posted on, then that is a different story - and each agent has to decide where to allocate their marketing dollars most effectively to achieve a good result for their customers.

The world does not revolve around you or I. Just because it "makes sense to post open houses to many places - especially if they are free" doesn't mean that this will happen. In YOUR business - Whatever that may be - you have a different style than your peer. So long as both styles are effective, it really doesn't matter HOW one goes about doing it. I am equally sure that you don't communicate this way with your boss, peers, associates or customers.

Were you really interested in having your message more well-received, you would have phrased it differently. So one may only conclude that there's something else going on here - and therefore it's not worth our further consideration.

On a personal note - we are sorry that you are "having a bad week" - or whatever is going on.

Regards,

Steven,

Give it up. Now you are calling me dishonest. That is pretty ripe coming from someone who is posting anonymously and for whom there is no down side for saying anything you want.

You have not tried to contact me, so it's obvious you only wish to tender insincere and incorrect information about people who honestly and diligently try to represent their clients and don't believe what you believe.

There is room for multiple opinons in this world. Good luck with your world.

Sincerely,

Dugald Allen

P.S Thanks BobM. I believe it's a lost cause.

im normally a lurker here, but it looks like you are talking to yourself steven. after reading your responses, it's no wonder you are not getting an answer. perhaps he is just tired of dealing w you. if you treat people badly, then you'll end up drinking your kool aid alone. posts like yours from behind a semi-anonomous user id might give you some feeling of power and release from a bad day at work. im not saying anyone is right, but neither is the last word always right.

Then the seller should have chosen Redfin to be their brokerage. Agents can advertise where they want.

Dugald: ..and Steven, I do post my opens on sites other than Windermere.com. Where I post is part of the proprietary value I add to my clients and I'll be glad to discuss 1-on-1.

Even if you post your opens on 100 websites, what do you think your sellers would say if they had the choice to have their opens on 100 websites or 101 websites? Not even taking into account that the 101st site has "HUGE volume."

Of course you are afraid to answer this question honestly since it would only amplify your indefensible position.

This is a public forum where intellectuals can freely exchange ideas and thoughts. Why do you feel the need to state your views offline? What are you afraid of?

As I said, I'll be glad to show you what is possible and not possible if you want to contact me directly. I'll even buy the coffee.

Dugald, I understood your comments perfectly. Let's look at EXACTLY what you wrote:

You begin our discussion with this gem.
"Redfin is a competitor, not a friend. While their site has won accolades from bloggers, we want you on *our* site, not theirs. I'm with windermere. I want you on my site - windermere.com."

Then you ackowledge the wide reach of Redfin:
"Redfin's site volume is HUGE compared to Windermere or JLS"

So when you say:
"I will advertise open houses where the buyers are. When there is evidence that advertising on any site has impact, I will do so."

Will you? Does that mean you choose not to put open houses on Redfin because of the HUGE volume of eyeballs there, or because "I want you on my site - windermere.com." and " I want you to use **me**?"

Also, while you claim, "I (and most agents in the Seattle area) cannot just set up a one click open house that goes to any/every site." The Redfin rep says, "On Redfin we show all the open houses we get from the NWMLS. For listing agents or sellers who want their open house to appear on Redfin just send it to the NWMLS and we'll display it." I can't imagine it's that difficult to send your open house info to the NWMLS to be picked up by all the aggregate sites (Redfin and Trulia included.)

These are all YOUR words, not my "mis-reading" or misunderstanding" anything.

Your motivations are very clear and I caution anyone from listing their home with an agent more concerned with getting future clients than selling their home. It is no surprise that you would prefer to take this discussion out of the public realm.

My last entry to this log will be this:

Steven, you have mis-read and, I believe, misunderstood my comments. I have said the following:

1. I will advertise open houses where the buyers are. When there is evidence that advertising on any site has impact, I will do so. I will NOT advertise on a site just because it is there. Wasting time on non-effective data entry is not in my clients' best interests.
2. Your pre-disposition that any of us are trying to stop people from finding our listings or doing anything to slow a sale is ludicrous. We do many, many things to make sure as many people know about our listings and the activity surrounding them. If you, as a seller wanted a specific item, we'd do it for you.
3. That there is information proprietary to any one site is normal and usual on the internet.
4. An open house is one small piece of a marketing strategy.
5. and I think this is a fundamental disconnect in your understanding of the issue: I (and most agents in the Seattle area) cannot just set up a one click open house that goes to any/every site.

My information is available to you at a click of a button - it's on my profile and I have added my web site to each posting. Feel free to contact me at any time if you have further questions about this issue.

Wow. I'm a little afraid to wade into this discussion, but not being shy gal, I will anyway.

Steven S., your are right, agents are no longer the holder of all the information about what's available on the market. That time has long past. That is no longer where we provide real value and really never was.

The value of a good agent is the skills they bring to the table in negotiating the best terms for their Buyer or Seller, the education they provide on the ins and outs of the process of Buying or Selling a home, and risk /reward factors the Buyer or Seller must weigh to make the best decisions for themselves. But more importantly than all that is the understanding of the legal issues involved in a real estate transaction and the risks that come with signing that contract. Even though we can't practice law, that knowledge is invaluable to the client. Knowing when to send the client to legal counsel for their own protection is worth its weight in gold.

Yes, it is our responsibility to get our Sellers to provide as much effective exposure on the market as possible. Note the word "effective". Each agent makes a business decision as too where the mostly likely place is the most qualified, ready and able Buyer is likely to come from. There are a lot of places we can waste our time and money these days and not be effective (newspapers for example.)

I personally don't care where the Buyer found my listing. I care more about the fact that the Buyer is qualified, (able to get financing or has cash) ready (to move forward now), and able ( has no obligations or emotional holdbacks) that would keep them from closing the transaction. Since I have all my Buyers sign a Buyer's Agency Agreement, I don't worry about getting paid. If the Seller won't pay the full Selling Agent Commission, my Buyer's have already agreed up front to make up the difference between what the Seller is paying in commission and the 3% I earn as a Selling Agent. As has been the case forever, Sellers have always agreed up front the amount of commission they will be paying.

But, I do place my money and time where I think I can get the most qualified Buyers to view my listings and preview my properties. If I find the flow of qualified Buyers seeing my listings and Open Houses comes from Redfin, you can be sure I will be on Redfin.

Sorry, I really did intend to make my input short.

Sally Bostwick, Realtor
Coldwell Banker Bain
Lake Union Office

Your sarcasm is a poor mask to the fact that you are attempting to defend a non-defendable position. You've been perfectly clear that you weigh your future client prospects above selling your current client's homes. Sabotaging your seller's listings for your own personal gain. It's a good thing we did not use you as our listing agent.

aha, now the truth is out. We're all trying NOT to sell our listings. I *knew* there was a reason!

Of course, we don't want the income associated with either selling our listings or meeting people who might use our service.

*That's* the problem!!!! ...and I thought it was the economy! Silly me!

If it was that easy, then we'd do it. It's not the the ROI isn't there. It's a simple business decision.

Nooo...... actually I said the State of New Jersey does not allow us to use Redfin or Upromise because THEY consider it a bribe. I see upromise in our grocery stores and think "wow what a great idea ". Yet as realtors we can not pull buyers or sellers in with the perks offered through the program. The state considers this a bribe.
I did a little research, not much but enough to wet my whistle about Redfin. New Jersey is not there.

Here's my take on it.

If I had a buyer it would not matter to me where he came from. I am there whole heartily to sell the listed home. I don't necessarily have to be physically in the home such as an open house I just have to get it to someone that is interested. An open house is only one day. The Internet is 24/7. That's where I want to be.


I usually don't go out of my area in blogs but as I stated before the word "sabotage" just sparked my interest. I was expecting a good punch line.

According to the dictionary Sabotage also means "deliberate" harm. Yeah to me that is a harsh way of accusing someone of doing business. I guess I am just on the other side of the window looking in a different direction than you.

Let's be clear about this Dugald, sharing open house information with the NWMLS costs you NOTHING! You already profess that "a few" people come to your open houses "from online." So the bang you get, increasing "a few" to maybe a bit more than "a few," for the buck you have to spend, NOTHING, is not worth your while. I see.

Again, I ask, how does it help the seller to not have their open house on as many eyeballs as possible? You've already explained how it helps YOU. How does it help the SELLER?

....and Steven, I do post my opens on sites other than Windermere.com. Where I post is part of the proprietary value I add to my clients and I'll be glad to discuss 1-on-1.

Steven,

Now you're getting simply argumentative.

The word sabotage has a strict meaning, but implies an intentional, bad intent, which is what Loretta was trying to explain to you. ...and yes, if someone told me I was sabotaging something, I would wonder what **their** position was.

You have really not done yourself a great service by suggesting that my comments were self-serving. I believe that I made a business case for my opinion that serves my clients capably, efficiently and effectively.

If we quantify the effort vs. the results, then posting open houses on other web sites does not give me a bang for the buck.

As I hold open houses, I track where people come from. 90% come from the signs, a few from the newspaper and a few from online. Most people who are interested in an area will wander the neighborhood during known open times - Sunday 1-4.

oops - that's exactly what you did!

To further Shawn and Dugald's analogy, why would someone post their resume on Monster.com but omit the fact that they attended Harvard Law School, hoping that potential employers would go to their personal website to find that fact? They wouldn't.

I pose you this question Dugald. Do all your sellers know that their open house information is only listed at winderemere.com? If you explained the situation to them and gave them the choice to be either only on windermere.com, or at every site that feeds from the NWMLS, what do you think your clients would choose?

Respectfully, Loretta, here is the Webster's definition of sabotage: an act or process tending to hamper or hurt.

How else would you describe real estate agents who intentionally keep certain information from highly viewed websites in favor of trying to bring increased traffic to their own poorly viewed site? As Dugald has professed to, certain agents have the interests of themselves ahead of the interests of their clients. This is what I call sabotaging their own listings to help promote their business. There is no better word for what I describe.

Is it not you, at the beginning of this thread, who tried to cast a shadow of "bribery" over the business model of refunding buyer's commission back to the buyer?

Your comments make clear your attitude that consumers must to go through an agent like you in order to buy or sell a home. We both know this is just one of many viable options available to us an it is dishonest of you to preach otherwise.

no, no, no - not afraid at all. That's funny.

Shawn, we're talking about advertising open houses. Redfin still publishes the home's resume (aka the listing.)

Steven , I didn't intend to state that Realtors are beginning and end. I asked you to INTERVIEW a person that would be suitable to ASSIST you. REALTOR is the title we use. The tools are all different.

I am in agreeance with you on the fact that there are several ways to find a home.

I am in agreeance that the Internet is a crucial one. Your in Seattle Washington and I am in Northern New Jersey. Now that is way cool

You and I - along with other sales agents, buyers and sellers are using the Internet right now. We are trading off information. We are clarifying the unknown. Thanks to the internet

I think the word Sabotage just threw me off right from the start. Your question "Why do listing agents sabotage their own listings? " just seems so harsh. It gets translated into sinisterism. I don not know what you do for your career but I am sure you do not go to work with intentions to "sabotage" your job. Nor would you like others accusing you of sabotage. Life just ins't like that. Maybe a mistake, or an error will occur but not sabotage.

By using Sabotage you've created a vision a Realtor in a dark coat with a wide brimmed hat sneaking around dark corners stealing all the Internet websites and property signs so no one knows their for sale while mysterious music plays in the background. Then returning to a dark dingy apartment with no income to buy food for his family.

I, along with many other realtors work too hard to fit in that description. Take a moment to sit in the shoes of a hard working, dedicated Realtor. In the end instead of "sabotage" you might use "resourceful". Maybe , during your lone search a realtor did not get you to purchase their listing because they missed out on your finding the right listing , on the right website, at the right time but due to other resorcefulness they were able to find several others that might be interested. Glass 1/2 full? Glass 1/2 empty.

I have an agent from Intero that is currently helping me with my house search and she's wonderful and I don't intend to drop her.

However, that does not mean that I only go to Intero's website or depend on my agent for house hunting and information. I use a variety of sources including Trulia, Movoto, Realtor.com, and Redfin. I do that because, I can find specific information about homes that maybe one of the others might not have. For example, I visit the forums here in Trulia, I like the map feature in Movoto, and the website interface in Redfin - just to mention some.

So, my RE agent does not need to be afraid that she will lose my business because I am thirsty for more information! Quite the contrary - I might find something that she was not aware of and we can go and take a look at it together!

And as Dugald said - if the traffic on Redfin is huge, but yet they only get a very small amount of the business... what are you so afraid of then?

Putting it in another analogy, if I was looking for a job, I would want every prospective company to view my resume and not just limit myself to only a few. I want my name to be out there, the more people see my resume, the greater the possibility that someone will contact me and the greater chance that I will get a job that I like more.

I understand your point Dugaid. My point, however, is that what you say is "competitive" for you, is a detriment to your client's interests. Of course, price, amongst many things, are much more important than open houses. But more potential buyers at open houses could not be a bad thing. You are sacrificing more potential buyers for your sellers in favor of more potential listers for you.

Steven

Your points are taken, but I think your itunes analogy more proves my point than otherwise - that it's normal not to advertise certain items on competitor sites. Amazon still offers itunes gift cards - through their reseller system. Redfin shows the listings - through the third party reseller system known as the MLS.

There is competition out there and we make business decisions to not advertise certain items on a competitor site. It's not short sighted, it's competitive.

Remember, an open house is **only one piece** of marketing a home and, in my opinion, is importnant but not anywhere near the most important. All the competitive web sites still advertise the listing itself and you can always call your broker to see the home...

The biggest influence in selling a home is price - and that's already online ...everywhere.

Loretta,

i must take issue with your constant need to try and state that buying and selling a home starts and ends with hiring a realtor. I have been very careful in this thread to be conscious of the fact that this is a site for real estate agent to gather and discuss issues. I recognize the fact that agents are a valuable resource for many consumers. I also recognize that each and every consumer is different and has different needs when buying or selling their home. I now see why this issue (and sites like Redfin) are such a hot button issue in these parts. My interpretation is that before the advent of popular aggregate sites, real estate agents WERE the one and only place to go for consumers looking to buy or sell their homes. They WERE the gatekeepers of the MLS and all the information that came with it. Agents like you, Loretta, feel you need to bang the drum of saying that you are STILL the only place to go to get information, when that is truly not the case anymore. I can only speak from personal experience, but my wife and I have bought and sold numerous homes in our lifetimes. We have dealt with good agents and bad agents. We are very thankful that we can now search for homes on our terms and bring in our agent when we feel the time is right.

Every consumer is different, Loretta. To suggest that hiring an agent from the very beginning is the one and only choice for everyone is either deliberately dishonest, or in-deliberately naive.