This "cavalier" attitude over the buyer having spent $15,000 more, contributes to the public's distrust of Realtors in general. Basically you're saying "quityerbellyaching... you got the house didn't you?"
Regardless of when they sell it... they may have paid $15,000 more than they "might" have... all George is asking, "is there a way to confirm that a 2nd offer really exists?". The answer is a yes or a no, perhaps with an explanation. The proper answer, in my opinion, isn't "don't worry about it".
I have been in that situation a ton of times and my personal feeling is that you got the home. If you want to flip it next year then the 15K could be a big deal, but if you stay in this home for the next 7-15 years happily then be happy that you got the home you wanted. What if you had stayed put and there was another offer and you were still renting? That is the reality of real estate. Best
I think so. I think that agents should be truthful and not misleading about the status of offers.
"We have (x) offers" should be a statement of fact, not of wishful thinking. "We have people circling," "We've had a lot of interest," "An agent has told me that they were going to write an offer, but I don't have it in hand," all are acceptable.
Whether or not the listing agent discloses the contents should be for the Seller to decide, not the agent.
And the buyer doesn't have to bring a net worth statement to the offer table.
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For George S, the real question is, did they con me? I don't think so. I think they did him a favor; if they had just said, "we do have one offer already," George might have gone away, thinking that he might have to come in at list price or above. But it doesn't always turn out that way, and the fact is, most shysters are clever enough to not commit flagrant and obvious violations.
It sounds kind of fishy that the listing agent would disclose the amount of any other offer. It is fine if he tells you there is another offer but to disclose the amount is unethical during the negotiation process.
Make the buyer show all they can get a loan for. ok.
Now make the seller show the minimum amount they would take.
Then you can have them fight over just where they will accept an offer between the 2 numbers.
But since you will not allow your sellers to do this you can see you are wrong to suggest the buyers have to show all of their potential loan amount. Besides, a lot of people will not take as much loan as they could qualify for as they refuse to spend that much money.
no. the preapproval for $205,000 (or often written for the property address, instead of a price), is an indication that I have offered you $205,000 for the house, and here is the "almost-proof" that I can back up what I say with funds.
no deception. no subterfuge. no artifice.
The purpose of stating "I have an offer at 220" is to induce the other party to come in at 220 or above.
The purpose of stating, "I'm preapproved for 205" is to induce the Seller to accept a price no higher than 205.
The statement, "I'm pre-approved for 205" is, in this case, a Mamet-like deceit. Actually, our buyer is pre-approved for 220, but has had a "technically true" document prepared that hides some pertinent information in an attempt to deceive the seller.
the fact that they are potentially approved for $100,000 more than that number is irrelevant.
when a listing agent says there is a competing offer... whether there truly IS or IS NOT... is relevant.
Ron and Debbie Albert
Coldwell Banker Residential
Essentially, how can I mislead the Seller into thinking that I can't afford any more than this sheet of paper indicates.
Do we think that the Buyer needs to disclose how well-qualified they are, too?
By the way, I didn't agree with the listing agent. If it is true, it's unfair to another buyer. If it is not true, it's unfair to you!
Many of them are for Dunes, with whom I'm not disagreeing with as much as I am acknowledging and adding that solutions are unlikely.
Although, nobody said anything about "98% right." Coming from NYC, I'm suspicious by nature, but I'm not going to bother the Department of Licensing every step of the way in every transaction, either.
- Are realtors afraid to share their concerns because they are more fearful of being wrong
Afraid? By the time we even get a hearing, the house is sold! Closed. If the buyer decided to walk, now we have to bring them back into the picture, along with the agent and their broker, to take the time to prepare a case that the Listing Agent MIGHT have been bluffing when they said they had an offer at 220.
I call with "proof" or I don't call. It that's not being enough of an advocate, then I guess I'll have to live with that. But I'm not willing to destroy a reputation (in an atmosphere, where the accusation alone can stall a career) unless I'm positive that a fraud has been perpetrated.
Instead, I'm going to tell my clients, as I have in the past, that there might (or might not) be another offer. The listing agent tells me there is one... but make the offer as though the "other offer" doesn't exist... don't pay more than you intended.
I'm gonna give you a thumbs up for this one part of your comment.
"much ado about nothing"
It's a Blog topic (Oh those people are so bad, I'm not like that, call me email me) and nothing more...
That's what will be done, that's what's already being done, that's what's always been done
IMO it's time for everyone to move on because all have made it clear this discussion has been "much ado about nothing" for whatever reasons they gave.
Let's all discuss how to improve something instead so we can explain how we agree something should be done but we can't do it and they can't do it and them should do it but I'm not gonna do it, don't want those guys to do it.
We'll be advocates....Yeaaaa!!!!
Its a real estate transaction, not a con-game.
And based on that decision the Consumer will decide if they take your word or not. Nothing has to be set up or created or figured out.
Agents just need to ACT. You see or suspect then you confirm, pursue the issue, report, turn in, complain you do not sit on your hands wondering if you shoulda done something or go complain it exists, or you're not like them because or tell the public to deal with it because you have so little pride in what you do that taking action is an inconvenience......They exist and the issue exists because YOU did nothing.
It doesn't matter the consumer paid more than necessary ... it was their decision to believe the Agent I assumed I could believe and pay more than necessary, they got the house didn't they?
Yeah, great question that question of Why don't we have any credibility or trust or respect....Duh
Dunes, I think we are on the same page as far as cleaning up our perspective corners and raising our children to clean up theirs. You were in two professions where you definitely see the worst in human nature (maybe sometimes the best?) and as you stated, you can't make "bad" people good, just because that is what we desire. You can't always change things for the better just because we know it is the right thing, human nature being what it is.
I don't think that I agree that the RE industry as a whole is broken or corrupt or giving the public a raw deal.
A few individuals in the industry may be broken, corrupt or giving the people who hire them a raw deal, just like all industries.
I think the RE industry is particularly difficult to change as a whole because each state has its own rules.
In the meantime, I'm just trying to fight the good fight, just like I see a lot of people doing here.
Sure you can use any analogy, but it has no credibility if it has no relevance to the point you are trying to make. And of course, the sellers don't want to disclose all of their offers. That is obvious. What is the problem with disclosing all the offers AFTER the close? How does that affect the price of the sale?
Agents and brokers need to understand that their profession is a dying one. People are tired of these types of business practices and will no longer need their services. All you really need is a good real estate lawyer. There are so many tools now that I can find a house faster than some brokers in my area. Also, you don't really have to pay your AGENT anything more than 1%. They can't do anything to get more. I just bought a new house and the sellers only paid the agents 1% total. LOL!!
Sorry about the house, hope you didn't get hurt. Martin Mull had a bit where he mentioned staring up at the Encyclopedia Britannica, Book 7, Girl-to-Grab.
OK, these jokes are even older than you are!
I'm old, I bought my first property in the 60's I know what it was like in the past and what I think it's like compared to now. (A vacant lot, $1500 $100 down $100 a month, Rubicon Bay Lake Tahoe, lived in a camper while reading books on how to frame a house and a book on How to get girls for 1 year)
One of the books helped me a lot.
And, you can't compel them. Do we understand this? We cannot - and are never going to - compel sellers to disclose their offers. You can't. You can do a lot of things, but they mostly involve refusing to deal with these sellers. Well, that's probably your loss, too.
When a buyer shows up - someone like George - with a pre-approval letter for 205, does the Seller have a right to demand proof that George can afford to pay more? Maybe, as a condition of countering at a higher price - 225 and you need to provide a preapproval letter. "But, gee, I'm willing to pay 205." Yeah, well, we're willing to settle for 205, unless you can pay more. Can you pay more?
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You are correct, Dunes; I am not going to make changing this my life's work.
And, by the way, Bob Russell might not be one of the world's great philosophers, but he was inducted into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame.
Yes it often takes many to make a change, but that many consists of individuals working towards a common goal....I do not see that, not even a few beyond talking about how sad it is it happens or claiming an active role because they talked about it.
Everybody has other things to worry about (bills, family, work, ect.) but somehow there are still those who do more than talk a good game, some actually play. I couldn't even get all the people in one single church I was at to change or be good people (some were bad but my beliefs/principles did not allow me to give up) and my next Profession was the same.
As a great Philosopher once said "He ain't heavy he's my Brother" (Disclaimer: I think it was said before women lib), and I think the public is getting a raw deal from the RE Industry (and yes the banking, the positions, the the the also) but we are discussion the RE Industry in a RE Forum.
I'm sincerely sorry you are discouraged by especially if I said it but.....
I shared my TRUE opinion and MY REASONS out of respect not for any other reason, the minute I did that my email box filled and my intelligence was explained to me in detail.
I shared my HONEST opinion about this Topic/discussion my email box refilled and again my intelligence (plus that of my children) is being explained to me in detail by RE Agents again. In total over 400 emails in 3 days..........
You're discouraged? I spent over a year saying the opposite of what I'm saying about Agents now. What do you think changed my mind? I don't like Agents?
Asking too much...Would you like me to document or tell stories of my struggle in fighting for the right of Women to be Priests, Accountability in the behavior of Priests, people with Special needs ect, Flakes and Fakes claiming to be Professional Psychologists ...all on my time, how much family time I gave up blah blah blah....
Of course not, who cares?
Well I care and every night I sleep well knowing my beliefs are more than blah blah blah and I participated in making my corner of the world better, a apparently obsolete and insane notion my children have chosen to follow. Priorities, yes I understand and have opinions about priorities and making the World a better place, it doesn't begin with saying I can't do anything anyway.
My dad was a Captain on Oil Tankers, Cruise ships ect. and always always told me the first thing he learned at 16 when he first went to sea was.....You see a man standing there looking at a rope, he just stands there looking...pass him by. You see a man looking at a rope and he walks over picks it up then starts to struggle pulling and arranging it to get a job done, then you stop and help.
A lot of staring and talking about if it's a rope going on in the RE Industry (Yes elsewhere also) but this is a RE Forum and that is my opinion
You can't really use the "job" analogy because jobs always pay differently depending on experience and prior salary history. Its like saying depending on your history the price of the house is going to be different. The last time I checked, the houses have one price for all buyers.
There is nothing wrong with sellers wanting to negotiate a better price. They could have easily with a thing called a "counter offer".
Folks, things are the way they are, and grumbling is fine, but changing it is going to require a complete mind-shift in negotiations, which is not going to happen in our lifetimes - unless one of you comes up with an idea that will become universally accepted immediately because of its brilliance and its service to both parties.
Sellers are not going to submit to this, legislators will go nowhere with this, it is so much of a non-starter that the only purpose the discussion serves is to vent at how unfair the process can be.
Same thing with a job offer. "We've narrowed it down to three good candidates, and we're willing to offer it to you for thirty-seven five." But, you posted forty in the ad. "Well, we have these three good candidates, you see." Well, if you show me their applications and HR's approval on them, then, I'll take the job at thirty-seven five.
But lets see if this is really worth it. The listing agent typically will make 3% of the purchase price for commissions. If we use this current situation, that is $600 , the listing agent made because the bid was increased. These moronic agents are risking their livelyhood for $600? And sometimes the trick backfires and the buyers walk away. Now we know that it doesn't take much brain power to be an agent but seriously?.
oooh... my mistake... you said ""Here's something I do not remember anyone mentioning"... that's why it wasn't mentioned. I wasn't talking about "who else was stressing what..." Just answering the question posed.
I already had a idea/opinion why not (but do not agree), this Topic is not a new one to me nor one I've not already had several times over many years and I'm not hearing anything new or different.
You asked why it wasn't brought up... that's why it wasn't brought up. I wasn't talking about "who else was stressing what..." Just answering the question posed.
Sellers "do not like" as a reason?
Yes, that's the reason I don't recommend escalation clauses. Not the reason for anything else.. just the reason I don't keep it in my "bag of tricks". (A term used in the link you provided).
Joan I've discussed, suggested, joined in (like your how do we thread), offered,started many discussions in the time I've been here on this theme and you know that (..Your implying that all I do is complain surprises me a bit.....). But noted
Let's just say I agree with you, there really is no point in my saying anything about these kind of things here......it's your industry/profession not mine but if you are thinking I was passive or not a active actually doing something to make change happen person before I retired or now in the two professions I was a member of you may be a tad mistaken.
"feel free to let me know how to purge humanity of all bad people." Why, is that what we're talking about?
I'll be glad to expand this into what I think about that....It was my "calling" and Profession (which I was active in making changes in, like women being able to also do the job I had which was and still is very unpopular) for 20 years, I still speak, give classes or write about it many times a year. I may have a few opinions or a touch of education dedicated towards that topic. I even have a book (best seller) I can quote from that's been claimed by many to hold/contain a few Truths and a few cool concepts/ideas about humanity/bad people.lol
Dunes the Advocate, good name if they add my book to the new section of the BOOK. LOL
No worries I'll stop "complaining" and just concentrate on sharing my opinion with those who ask questions on the theory they can decide for themselves what to think about all this.
Really, did I miss the point? Was George's questions just a philosphical question without any real concern? Why is George curious to find out if another offer really existed? If it was not the thought that he overpaid or left money on the table why would he want to find out?
Perhaps Geroge can enlighten us why he wants proof if another offer really existed.
Dr. John McMillen
Clovis Real Estate
And who has beyond stressing their advocacy and their personal integrity.
When faced with suspicions or signs of Criminal action or even knowledge of in some cases by another Agent (Fraud, yes I checked) who actually does something beyond being shocked?
Sellers do not like as a reason?
Well buyers have "don't like" stuff also, like not knowing if there is actually another competing offer which is an issue which has been brought up and discussed pretty much every year for years not something just newly brought to the attention of Agents..Agents have been Advocating (talking about phantom offers) by saying "yeah that's bad " forever on this issue.
Want some links to this same conversation from last year, the year before, the year before that and that and that?
Not worried about your "bag of tricks" Alan worried about the "bag of tricks" used by the Agents who know there is an extremely slight risk that any other Agent is going to do anything or say anything to them about it.
Self-Policing Industry LOL
The escalation clause is just another method of some agents idea of "highest and best", and how to rise to the surface. It is not popular with listing agents, and often very unpopular with sellers, who often view it as "sleazy" and "underhanded".
Sellers are frequently concerned if the buyer actually GETS the property, with their escalation clause, and ends up paying $10,000 more than they really wanted to ... that they'll try to get it back during inspection... and or get cold feet later in the transaction and just pull out, and the deal just won't close.
It's not a tactic I can recommend, it can easily backfire, and it's not in my "bag of tricks".
So in closing
Deals fall through and there will always be some with Buyers remorse in any scenario.
VIP Badge Holder
This clause idea is not so much that it hurts the seller...per se.......In my opinion, it's a gimmick, and it also dangles a carrot in the front of the seller..........Mr Seller I am willing to pay you 351,000, but only if someone else offers you 350,000............in the meantime, I am only willing to offer you 335,000. Some sellers resent that higher number being dangled.
My seller said he'd rather take the 1,000 lower offer from the buyers who offered that amount, in good faith, because to them the house was worth it. He felt it wasn't fair to the buyer who made an offer without a gimmicky clause, and he was leary of the buyer who, in his eyes, was playing a game, and needed to be forced (by the other offer) into paying the higher amount. Actually, the whole concept annoyed him.
As an aside, that buyer did wind up buying the home, and in the end, due to the back and forth negotiating, offered more than his escalation clause would have allowed.
Where might it hurt the seller?
Sometimes when that kind of buyer "wins".......they wake up the next day, and say, what the heck did I do..and buyer's remorse quickly sets in....deals can, and do, fall apart when the buyer realizes he really didn't want to pay that higher amount afterall, and acted more out of emotion than reason.
I have more confidence in a buyer who doesn't need to be forced into placing a higher offer.
This is not a common practice in my area...........in fact, I have only seen it offered a couple of times.
Perhaps whoever put the highest stop point in (highest offer would win)?...Just like an auction, how's a seller hurt by that?
"Of course, this brings up the issue of "proof" for an offer.'
Why? Agents do not seem to be that concerned about Proof of a Competing offer.....Require proof for both and we'll talk ;)
One agent tried that with my seller......my seller's response? "Tell your buyer I don't play games, and to make me a bonafide offer that stands on its own - not one that plays off of someone else's offer."
I agreed with him totally.
Oh, and what if 2 or 3 buyers put that same clause in......talk about a mess.........
Of course, this brings up the issue of "proof" for an offer.
I think we all agree any agent who lies should lose their license..........and a fine is certainly called for, too.