HI again Amanda
I admire your perseverence!!

OK, since you are determined to buy this home, I would leave no stone unturned. You (your agent or their broker) may want to do ALL the things you mentioned:

1. Reach out directly to the sellers either in Florida if you have their address, or hopefully by mailing a letter to their house here, as I am sure their mail is being forwarded

2.If you know the bank that is in the middle of this, it can't hurt to try to reach out to them, too, although that is most likely a long shot at this point

3.Make sure your agent (or the broker) CALLS the listing agent/agency to find out the STATUS of the listing - this is MOST important - ie: Is it still listed on the MLS?? Has it been withdrawn from the market??? If so, was it an unconditional release, or are the sellers still obligated to the agency.?.....Get these questions answered, and that may help point you in the right direction ....or at least tell you what your next step is. If the property is no longer listed for sale, then reaching out to the sellers will at least tell you what they may be doing next., or where they may be listing it.

Once you find out the status of the home on the market, then you will at least know who may be handling the sale. At the very least, getting a letter to the sellers will let them know you are interested in pursuing this purchase.

Understand that the sellers have walked away - they are off in Florida, and obviously are upside down on their mortgage and in financial distress (with this home, anyway). Their enthusiasm for this sale might not be as high as your enthusiasm for buying it!
As I said in my earlier post, this will be an uphill battle, but you seem ready, willing and able!!

Good luck.........update us...get those questions asnwered.

If you'd like to speak privately, please feel free to email or call me. I don't work in your area, so I am not lookoing to drum up business - just to be helpful - after almost 25 years in the business, I have answered a few questions in my time!! ha

Best wishes....
Debbie
Prudential NJ Properties
Debbie.Rose@PrudentialNewJersey.com

Thank you everyone for your answers. I have some follow-up questions.

First, let me say that our realtor is great, just unexperienced in this particular experience. She is really trying for us but right now we just don't have any information on who the new seller's agent for this home is. And we don't know if/when we will find that out. My question to the group at large is, what can we do now? Can we call the bank that they owe? Can we try to contact the sellers directly? (And keep in mind "we" = us or our realtor) What avenues would you recommend to a client who is in my position? Yes, I know there may be other homes out there but THIS is the home we have been dealing with for the past 5 weeks and this is the only one that felt right so far. We will continue looking, but this is where our heart is right now and any advice you can pass along on how to go about salvaging this would be helpful.

Thanks!

Amanda:

I see that Ms. Rose has taken the high road and I would like to join her in wishing you well and signing off.

Two things before I call this question answered, unless you ask for further clarification or have another question.

The first is the quibble about the word “executed.” Definitions and usage are fairly loose. You could look it up! What Ms. Rose was alluding to was that a piece of paper with only one signature not a contract. (Except for an option granted but that’s not at issue here.) Without a contract, you have no standing and no rights, not even to an answer, really, although common courtesy would indicate that such an answer should be forthcoming.

The second thing is bad advice or incorrect information should not be ignored but refuted. I note our language expert was quick to jump in with a niggling correction while claiming to be above correction herself. Let all know that if I thing your response is going to mislead, I will do my best to point out what I think is wrong with a specific answer and provide what I think is correct. If I’m wrong myself and someone points out the error, I will be very glad of it, stand corrected and learn from my peers.

For example, looking on Google, I found Ms. Rose’s citation about the word “executed.” In what I believe was her source, the FIRST definition (usually the most common) matched her take, the second, that of Ms. Thomas. The word “Executionary” refers to contracts that have open obligations and have not been fully executed in the second meaning of the term. So, you may have neither an executed contract (fully signed) or an “executionary” one but you certainly WILL NOT have an “executed” contract in the second meaning until you receive a deed from the former owner or the Sheriff (after foreclosure,) making you the new owner.

My advice in my first posting still stands and was based on Ms. Rose’s answer.

While I hope you get the house you want, my bottom line advice is to work with a Realtor who knows his/her business and who can find you a house that you will be happy to make your home. The one you want right now may be a long shot.
Best wishes,
Bill Holt

Amanda hello again!

Realtor banter aside, I wish you the very best in achieving your goal of buying the house you fell in love with.
I know we all hope things work out the way you want them to. I am sure your Realtor can help make that happen for you. Don't give up!!

Please, let us know what happens......

Sincerely.
Debbie

Debbie,
With all due respect to you - because it was printed in a business article doesn't make it right and many terms are bandied about incorrectly. Check out Chapter 11 of Principles and Practices of NJ Real Estate. "An executed contract refers to a contract where both parties have performed all that is required of them by the contract"...Amanda clearly didn't have an "executed" contract - that was the problem. Your first posted answer was correct and it said basically the same thing that mine did - so I had no problem with your initial answer and didn't comment on it. .

But with respect to your later answer, I just wanted to clarify the difference beween fully-signed contracts and fully executed contracts. Having been an editor and reporter in my previous life, such things are important to me.

But as you said, enough of this. I came on here simply to give my advice as an agent who has done countless sales in the target area of the posting community member. My intent was not to get into a trulia war with another agent who referred to me as a "bad" broker - totally unnecessary.

Everyone should just come onto this forum with a heart to help the post-er ---- not to denigrate others. There is no need for anyone to say whose opinion is bad or better or worse -they're all just that - opinions. Log on, give your opinion, be respectful to others, and leave. I'm sorry that you were brought into this. Please accept my sincere apology if I've offended you.
Kim

Well Kim, in all due respect, for someone who didn't want to "nit pick" you sure did. The definition of fully executed can also mean "fully signed" or it may mean full performance of all contingencies.

In northern NJ we use attorneys all the time to handle all of our closings. I have never heard an attorney ask if the contracts are "fully signed"... the use of the term "fully executed" on an daily basis implies fully signed by all , and returned to all parties involved. At that point, the attorney review can start.

I am sure Amanda isn't interested in us edifying these terms.

In my initial response to her, I was only pointing out that since the contract was only signed by her, she didn't have anything concrete or binding. I was answering her question. I wasn't trying to give her a lesson in legal terminology. I'll leave that to the attorneys.
Have a great day!
Debbie

PS
Not to belabor this, but here is one definition of "fully executed" taken from a business article online:
"Fully-Executed "
"A contract has been fully-executed when all parties have initialed (if necessary) and signed the contract. "

From what I have read, there are varying definitions......."performance" may factor into it, but it doesn't have to. As I said, let's leave the parsing and ffurther defining to the attorneys!

Amanda: Contrary to what you may read elsewhere in this thread, there is really only one set of laws for the state of New Jersey. There are no regional laws, north, south, east or west. Customs don't really vary that much. In south Jersey there is less use of attorneys but as reported, there seems to be a plentiful supply of those willing to do so. . Municipal ordinances regarding use and occupancy vary between municipalities but that is not under discussion here.

I stand by my advice and having already given Ms. Rose thumbs up for her answers, I suggest you read what she has to say. Keeping your agent and working with him/her or their agency is always a good first step but sometimes, you do have to push forward on your own. Just say'in.

Bill

Clients are not involved, nor are the courts with procuring cause. That is an issue handled between brokerages, and will not impede a sale from going through.

Amanda, don't be confused by the verbiage regarding this issue.

Right now, you have an agent who is representing you - let him or her direct you as to what to do next. No one here has enough specific information to tell you that something will "definitely" be an issue.

One thing seems certain - this home wil be sold at some point. Make sure your agent stays on top of it. If they are not handling it in a way that satisfies you, speak to their broker.

PS - "... without a fully executed contract (that's when ALL parties have signed) you really don't have an agreement"...

This is NOT to nit-pick but to edify, as this aformentioned statement is actually incorrect.

In NJ a "fully-executed" contract is a contract that has been completed with all contingencies met and the sale has come to fruition.
A contract with all signatures, but not completed through all contingencies is a "fully-signed" contract. It's semantics, but it's important to know the difference.

If the contract were "fully-signed", then Amanda could sue for specific performance. If it were "fully-executed", then Amanda would be a happy girl because she'd be living in her new home.

Again Amanda, if you're not sure if what you're being told here is correct, you should seek the advice of a real estate attorney. As I sell homes in south Jersey (including Woodbury) unlike some of the respondents from North or Central Jersey, or another state, where the customs are different, please feel free to contact me for a list of excellent attorneys with practices specializing in real estate. Most or all on the list will give a 30 minute free consulation.
Best wishes,
Kim

Amanda,
My apologies for forgetting to include that as a Realtor I cannot give you legal advice, and that if you want to find out how to move forward with purchasing this particular home, you should definately speak with an attorney who specializes in real estate related issues. Other than that, everything else that is said is a re-hash of what i've said, and some of it is just plain bad advice. Just be careful, if you do decide to go forward with this home, procuring cause will definately be an issue, especially if you ever tried to submit an offer without the Realtor who took you into the property (as is mentioned below). I would not ever recommend that you do this without benefit of legal counsel. You'd be treading on thin ice. Also, procuring cause could very well have something to do with this entire issue as it may be the very reason that the seller doesn't want to move forward with your contract -they may be or should be aware that if they did move forward with your contract, that both their listing agent, with whom they're not happy, and your agent are due a commission as persuant to the listing contract. This could be the reason that your transaction has not come to fruition -the sellers don't want to reward the agent whom they feel doesn't deserve it. Good luck, whatever you decide.

Kim

Kimberly Thomas, Voorhees Broker

Well said, Bill - a full and comprehensive answer!

Amanda something else occurred to me. Is the home still listed on your local MLS? If it is, then your offer should still be able to be presented some how, somewhere.

If it was withdrawn from the market, then ask your agent to reach out to the sellers directly. The original listing agency may still have a position in they sale, but at least you can find out what might be happening next.You said the sellers moved to Florida - was there an address for them on the contract you signed?

Look, this may be a bit of an uphill battle for you right now. The sellers moved to Florida, and are in financial distress by virtue of this being a short sale. Lots of emotions going on with the other side. They are not in a happy place right now. Hang in there, have a long talk with your agent (or their broker if you feel your agent is unfamiliar with this set of circumstances), and keep an open mind for other homes, as the short sale process can seem endless.

Best wishes once again..............
debbie

Amanda: Debbie Rose has the only really good advice for you. She is right on the ball. One NJ Broker is so bad that she has not made a disclaimer about legal advice. Let me add just a bit to what Ms. Rose has said.

First, of course, is this disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and the following should not be interpreted as legal advice.

You have NO arrangement with the seller's agent. You cannot expect them to do ANYTHING to help you in this situation. "Firing" an agent is not that easy, although I recommend it at times. There is a contract and ultimately, it is with the agency, not the agent. The seller’s agency may be unwilling to be “fired.” It would then be a matter for judicial procedure to see who did what to whom when. Of course, the agency can assign a new agent to the contract and the seller may accept that solution, at least for the remaining time of the contract. The agency may also just give in and tear up the listing contract.

Do not bother yourself about “procuring cause.” It is specifically excluded from the court system and refers only to arrangements to share commissions between Realtors. It has nothing to do with you or with this deal.

As Ms. Rose tells you, what you have done by signing a contract of sale is to have made an offer. You can only do that to the owner, who is the seller, not the lender. It would do you absolutely no good to approach that lender, bank, mortgage company, whatever. They cannot sell the property nor can they force the seller to do so. So, contacting them is a dead end.

You may have made an offer. You certainly intended to do so. It is unclear to me whether the seller received it or if it got lost in the shuffle during this “firing.” What you should do is make sure the seller, who is the owner of record on the tax records, (just in case this property has gone though foreclosure during this hurly-burly, be sure that the lender is not now the owner) gets your offer. If the Realtor with whom you are working is confused about how to go about it or refuses to work further on this deal, that’s a good cause for “firing” your own representative, whether you have a written agreement or not. If the only way for you to get your offer is to present it yourself, if I were in your shoes and wanted the property, I’d present it myself. I believe you have a right to do so, although there may be some legal consequences in terms of who gets paid any commission. If you are worried about that, consult an attorney. If you feel that you can afford to settle any claim that might be made against you, (not the strongest claim I’ve ever seen) move forward to achieve your goal.

Now, having made an offer, you must realize that the owner has the perfect right to say “no thank you.” Signed, unsigned, in proper form or flawed, full price, all cash with fudge icing on top and with whatever else you can throw in, including the kitchen sink, it is still only an offer. Ever been turned down for a date (or turned down someone, if the case applies)? It’s the same situation. No thanks and that’s final!

Of course (too many of them in this answer, I know) you want to know if your offer was received and if it was rejected. You may want to know why it was rejected, if it was or is turned down, however, the seller does not have to explain him/herself.

I would not wait to see where the seller went with his/her relations with the old agent if I were you. I’d get my offer before him right now.

Remember, if this is a short sale, the lender has veto rights because they will end up taking less than is owed and by letting the seller off the hook “short” of the amount owed. This is not certain and can take months to resolve. Does this sound like the kind of deal you want to work with?

Best of luck.

Bill Holt

Amanda,

The long and the short is that your agent could still put the deal together for everyone, another agent might list the house, or the seller might just throw their hands up and walk away. Chances are very likely that the seller owes the previous listing agent a commission if you buy the house (since you bought it as a result of their marketing efforts) and that may in itself cloud the issue a bit.

I wouldn't focus on the "we had a deal" or the "what is my recourse" train of thought but rather would plow forward on the "lets put this thing together" mindset and you should be fine.

Cameron Piper
#1 Trulia Agent in MN

HI Amanda.....................short answer - No.......verbal acceptance doesn't give you any right to the property, nor does the fact that you signed a contract which, is only an offer to purchase.

Based on what you have said, the sellers never signed the contract. Forgetting the fact that this is a short sale, which has its own set of complications, without a fully executed contract (that's when ALL parties have signed) you really don't have an agreement. The fact that you signed an offer, unfortunately, doesn't give you any standing at this point, other than you have shown a sincere interest in buying the house..

I hope your agent is working with the new seller's agent to help make this work for you. Your agent might also be able to contact the bank directly if you are not getting a response from the listing broker. Your contract can be passed on for handling by another agent in the same company, as long as the SAME company is still representing the sellers.

If you are not happy with how your agent is representing you, you might consider having a conversation with a real estate attorney. Please note that Realtors can not give you legal advice.

I know you are frustrated - hopefully, the sellers will get organized with a new agent, and you will be able to proceed. Your next big hurdle will be dealing with the short sale and the bank!

Best wishes........hope it all works out for you!
Debbie Rose
Prudential NJ Properties

If you have a buyer's agent and "square away all your concerns" executed sales agreement required review by any professional render an opinion. It all depends on listing agreement between seller & their agent.

However if you have an executed sales agreement press forward hold any all parties liable to contract signed based on performance clauses.

National Featured Realtor and Consultant, Mortgage Loan Officer, Credit Repair Lecturer
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/Lynn911
Lynn911

Dear Amanda,

I just saw that you updated your post with even more information. You are right - there is something not quite right about this seller's agent. Either they are very new to the real estate business with a supervising broker who is not supervising very well, or they're just plain incompetent! There is no way that a new listing agent, associated with a different brokerage, would use the same contracts prepared by the previous listing agent -that's ludicrous and I'm sure not even legal. Each listing broker must prepare their own contracts, so for this agent to insuate that another agent would just use his contracts - I have to ask, "What the heck planet is he on???!!!" Ok, I jest, but in all seriousness, I'm sure that your agent is advising you to move on, and they are correct. This is a scenario in which you do not want to further entangle yourself. Run, Amanda, run. (Oh, Ok I've just thought of a scenario in which this might occur and you've not made it clear so I don't know the details -but - if the agent is simply being replaced by another agent at his firm, then you're fine to move forward, as the broker actually owns the listing and in many agencies he/she can replace the agent if the seller so desires. In this case, the home stays listed with the same brokerage, so they could go forward with this deal. However, given the fact that you said in your earlier post that they will be returning your money, I doubt that this is the case.)
I think you need to move on.
Kim

Kimberly Thomas, Voorhees Broker & Realtor
856-308-5989 http://www.NJHomesNearPhilly.com http://www.KimThomasHomes.com
email: kim@kimcanhelp.com

Dear Amanda,
Unfortunately all of your fears are well-founded. If you put in another bid on this home with their eventual new listing agent, this is going to get very sticky. If the seller fired their agent after accepting a bid from you, they cannot legally sell the home to you without compensating the listing agent who represented them at the time of the accepted contract. My guess is that they know this and that's why they are offering to return your money and nullify the contract by not signing it. Legally, they may refrain from going forward, because they have not signed the contract. They are under no obligation to perform. Actually you were not waiting to hear from the bank, if they haven't signed yet. The series of events in NJ on a short sale is buyer signs, seller signs, wait the 3-day attorney review period and then the contract is fully-signed and valid and then it goes to the bank (along with any other documentation the bank requires). Since the seller never signed, you never began the three-day attorney review period and right of recission, and thus I doubt that you were ever actually waiting on the bank's approval, though you may have been mistakenly told so. In short sales the bank wants a clean deal and that includes a contract signed by all parties.
Without the seller's signature you do not have a contract, as unilateral contracts on the sale of real estate are not valid in NJ. Unfortunately, because they will return your money, you have no recourse (unless they don't return it, but then you're only entitled to sue for the recovery of your deposit). Also, it is highly unlikely that the seller will accept another offer from you because their agent will be seen as having a right to payment on any transaction that includes you under the procuring cause rule (i.e. they were legitimately involved in the procurement of any sale to you and have earned their commission). I will not comment on the seller's agent, as they may or may not have been a "crappy agent". It is taking a long time for some homes to sell in this market as some sellers (and unfortunately some agents) are slow to realize the seriousness of the market downturn and refuse to acknowledge, until their homes are listed for an inordinate amount of time, that their home is simply no longer worth what it was worth 3 years ago. Times have changed.
Alas, my dear buyer, in my humble opinion, I think that you got caught in a situation beyond your control and that you'll have to kiss this one good-bye. But on the bright side, in this market, you'll find many other good deals - with the right amount of research, patience, and luck!
Get back out there! There are deals to be had!
Kim

Kimberly Thomas
Voorhees Broker http://www.KimThomasHomes.com
email: kim@kimcanhelp.com
856-308-5989

I also wanted to add in that the contract was not drawn up by us - it was drawn up by the seller's agent. We signed it, returned to the agent and anticipated that the seller's were receiving it to sign at their residence in FL. The seller's agent, upon knowing of his termination, told our realtor that the contract was still fine and that they would just cross his name/agency info out and put the new agency info. This doesn't seem right to us.