Marcia, you need to read the post again.. According to the post, the buyer met with agents had them there for a few hours and discussed the property with themâ€¦ and then that person went to someone else and made the offerâ€¦ So, agent number 1 is the reason that the buyer went and made the offer on the house, a very good cause for procuring cause.. to which I am sure a local board would address accordingly.
â€œI want to emphasize to you all that these posts and comments made on Trulia voices are used by those of us who are national trainers. You might want to check the laws, rules and regs and your spelling before hitting "Answer". What I find is that there are so many misconceptions as to the Cause rulings. I have served on NAR PAGs relating to Buyer Representation and was the National Trainer for the ABR courses when we first presented them through NAR...and even before that! Trust me...I know of which I speak.â€
It is very exciting seeing your resume posted here and to express your interpretations, but all in all it would be up to a local real estate committee and board to make a decision on this situation.
And I have seen decisions/compensation in favor of #1 in exactly this scenario.
Yes I agree you should tell them to thier face on the spot..
Would love for you to tell me just as I was about to show you a home,
that you have zero intention on using me to buy that home..
So I could leave you standing there quicker than a NY minute...
The very same people..
who would never..
try to visit a doctor fror free
ask their attorney to work for free
ask the lawnmower guy to work for free
ask the auto mechanic to work for free
or leave a resturant without paying..
has no qualms at all...trying to use agents for free...
I have hads bad experience with all the above..
including getting horrible services from all the above..
I will never use them again, have fired them, and told all my friends and family to stay away..
However I never once tried to skip out on the bill...
thier lack of integrity..has nothing to do with my integrity...
Agent 1,..apparently deserved to be fired..no question..and told to stay away from..
But im not too sure, as I understand it...That you can just skip out on the bill..
without them being paid a referral fee,..or something..they did show first the exact home..that an offer was made on...
I have been agent 2..and paid agent 1 a referral fee...I was not happy..
But my client got the home of their dreams..and has refferred me many other clients...
So even thou agent 1..in my opinion did not deserve it..I sacrificed for my client..so agent 1 wouldnt intefere...
thank you for this thread and being a honest ethical person..hopefully lots of consumers will read this and understand and avoid, painful costly mistakes...
Remember there are unethical terrible servives and people in any industry..
I have been royally messed up by previous auto mechanics..
and no I dont now fix my own cars...
I have had terrible service and bad food at resturants..
and yes I still go to resturants.. :-)
I've also had a small minority of unethical, dishonest, buyers , investors and consumers
who purposefully and willfully tried to go behind my back and cheat me out of a commission..
so thier cousin, uncle, mother who was on vacation..could write the offer and get paid..
but my other over 100 past happy clients and customers make it all worth it..
and I will continue to work with buyers..despite my bad experience with a handful..
on the bright side, there is clearly tons of realtors on here,who dont value themselves
or others and wont mind if you cheat them out of commissions
and dont mind showing homes, and then letting themselves be used and then you go behind thier back and write offers with the listing agents..
because after all.."you didnt sign anything"
Im definitely not the right agent for those kinds of consumers..
but if you are a bad consumer looking to just use agents..
not value them, cheat on them, .use them to show you dozens of homes,
when you have no intention of using them.etc..
because after alll.."YOU DIDNT SIGN ANYTHING"
feel free to contact them..not me..below...
I actually have integrity and minimum standards,..and so should we all...
one thing though..I wouldnt want anybody that desperate representing me in anything...
no desperate..mechanics, attorneys, doctors or lawyers...or agents..
and neither should you! Im genuinely apalled at how little some agents here value thier time and services...
or the time and value and services of others...
Procuring cause is more than simply being the "agent of record who first showed the home".
Procuring cause is "an unbroken chain of events that eventually leads to a purchase". That chain can be "broken" many ways, including "firing the first agent, for cause"... or the agent not staying in touch with the client.
This is one of those cases where the buyer gets to work with the agent they want to work with... period. And the details (who gets paid, and how much) should have been handled in the background, via the two different office's managing brokers, rather than through litigation or mediation. And the issue of "who gets paid" should never have been brought to the attention, or have become an issue for the seller. The fact that the commission became an issue that caused the seller to 'not consider' your offer, is solely due to the fact that the listing agent made it an issue.
Agent #1 was due something, surely... but probably a modest showing fee, or perhaps a small referral fee (paid, by the way, not by YOU, but from Agent #2's commission). But since you (the buyer) had decided that you didn't have any confidence in agent #1, and would rather work with agent #2, that should have been enough.
And you are correct... you, as a layperson, are NOT expected to know all the little workings of the Real Estate world, and should not have been subjected to all of this grief, nor lambasted by commenters here for not knowing how to handle it.
Not that it is listing agents ( #1) place to call you.. it would be the job of "Wonderful and Trustworthy" agent # 2 that you decided to go with.. it is not your place to call the other agent. Where is the new agent here?
"the only reason agent 1 found out is that I called her (not having any idea how commissions works) to thank her for her help and ask her how I can go about setting her up to receive a portion of my agent's commissions. Either that, or I was going to pay her out of pocket out of respect. "
Again, none of this involves you at all and you had no place to call these people and try to do anything like this.. The "Sh*t Storm" as you call it.. was generated by and fueled by you.
"To think that the commissions issue would have been kept separate from my transaction...yeah right. I am 100% confident that my offer, which is over 98% of the listing price, was ignored. "
No, you were probably ignored.. there is a difference. If you had been this much of a headache just presenting an offer.. this would be a nightmare buyer transaction!
The seller probably said.. take less.. and no headaches.
So, now you have an agent you like look at houses and make an offer and buy a house.
Secondly, If I was the broker of that office, the second agent would get a 10% referral of one half of the transaction for putting the paperwork together and holding your hand. If that second agent complained, I would explain that he/she should be lucky to get paid at all.. and if the second agent pursued further, I would let them take it to the local board for arbitration.
It is not the fault of the agent that showed you the house that you decided to change course mid-stream. That agent that showed you the house and is due a full commission. He/she should not be penalized for your not being loyal. Your RE attorney has nothing to do with it and is incorrect in stating that the second agent should even see any portion of the commission.
The listing agent is being difficult? Sounds like you made your bed. You should approach the broker of the office that you are involved with and tell him/her that you want the house.
You have no right to see any other offers that come in and you should not involve yourself in the dispute.
Although the bad situation has created by you, the chips will fall as they may and are really not your concern.
Buy the house.
C'mon Tara.. Really? Reading the other posts would alter your response?
This is in the vein of why people like"agentslayer" posts at he/her did. To think that some posts on Trulia would change the way you think about â€œprocuring causeâ€ is a pretty large statement.
Marcia, the post screams "procuring cause" and agent number 1 has a pretty good case... and I would bet that agent number 2 would maybe see a small referral for his/her troubles in arbitration.
nope, it does not.. it only applies if thats the home that you make an offer on..then procurement clause..
there is a small minority of consumers that are unethical..
like you ask me to show you a home..and you have an agent
and I ask and you say no..because your agent is on vacation..
i show you the home..then you use your cousin, or buddy, who is also an agent
come in and write the offer...
well, I was the procuring agent..I showed the home that you want to make an offer on..
so if you go back and try to write an offer with an agent, who didnt show you the property
and did nothing but write the offer..I might have grounds for arbitration..
Its pretty simple..just be honest...
if you know you are not gonna use that agent tell them..
there plenty of desperate agents that will show you the home..even if you have zero intention of using them..
those agents..are ok with working for free and letting themselves..be used..so feel free to use them..
or would you rather a powerful agent who will protect you and your interest
and negotiate the best possible price..for you..and look after your interest through the entire transaction..
cause after all if that agent lacks the BACKBONE..to fight and negotiate for his own pockets...
how effectively can they negotiate and fight for your pockets...
It is also possible that the seller may not be to thrilled with what has transpired and may not want to move forward with you as a buyer, or is reluctantly moving forward, hoping that another offer comes in.
It happens more than you think. And yes, I have been there too.. where the seller had my back. told the buyer to take a walk.
If your offer is accepted, than you should be in attoney review and the situation is over between you and the Realtors. The attorneys will take over.
The first agent showed you the property. By your posting, you stated that you met with agents and had them spend an hour or two with you in properties... so, it sounds as if it was a little more than a Realtor â€œjust opening a doorâ€ for you. That makes agent number one, regardless of your decision to move to another Realtor due the full commission.. And if number one wanted to be nice.. he/she could give agent number two a referral.
Lulu, you should not be involved at all in these discussions and should just focus on buying the home that you want. The chips will fall in the proper place when the time comes.
You and the seller are the consumers and deserve to be protected. The situation shouldhave been delt with in the office, behind closed doors and they should have resolved whatever issues they have without involving you, especially since they are the listing and selling officeâ€¦.aka a team. They should be more than willing to work this out among themselves and you should have been left out of it 1000%.
It is OUR jobs as Realtors to educate the public how it works when we show/introduce property. We are supposed to ask if you are working with another Realtor prior to showing you property....Specifically to help avoid what happened here. How can you the general public, be expected to know unless someone tells you/asks you? .
In addition, this situation definitely should not have affected your offer. The seller being away and another offer coming in...that happens every day and the situation being what it was hopefully had no bearing on the sellerâ€™s actions and no influence on another or better offer coming in.
I would get the Broker of Record or the office manager involved as he or she could help to solve the dispute, get you out of the middle of it plus be a set of eyes on the situation especially with another offer on the table.
Regarding walking away I believe that only you can determine how much you want the property and what it is worth to you but I would not let a dispute between Realtors who are supposed to help put the deal together not impede its successâ€¦..effect my decision to offer more money or not on a home that I truly wanted. I would however want to know that if I do increase my bid thet the Broker or office manager stays involved at this point....Hope this helps and am sorry to hear about your situation. Good Luck CC
Re/Max Villa Realtors
Jersey City NJ
Maybe I should have read down a ways before my last response. NAR code of conduct says we are to ask any prospect or customer if they are the client of another agent. Is there a signed buyer agency agreement and are they working with somebody? If you said yes, I have an agent Betty that can't show it to me until the weekend and I can't wait to see the house, the agent should have referred it back to the listing agent that could show you the house as a ministerial act to help sell the house with no implied or expressed agency agreement. If you pushed for a showing today and pretended to not be aligned with another agent, that is not cool. In Illinois, the listing office holds the earnest money and commission and disburses at closing. Listing office can choose not to disburse co-op at closing and really do not have to tell you that is there intention. That does not benefit the seller to have you make an offer dependent on if your agent gets paid.
You have no right to determine who gets paid, period. If you pretended to not have an agent to that first agent that responded to your initial inquiry, and you basically lied to help another agent get the commission. I think NJ is a buyer agency state, and has disclosures you are to sign upon first showing. If you refused to sign anything that doesnt mean you get to protect your agent. That co-op agreement is between the two brokerage's management to determine if there is to be a split or not. If brokers are dug in, then it goes to arbitration panel. You do not have the right to protect a lazy agent that didn't show you the home. If you called on the sign and a floor agent met you at the house and you liked the house and decided to write with another agent, the question becomes why didnt you call your agent to show the house rather than "use" the listing office agent? If your preffered agent directed you to call on houses on your own, find a house you like and then they will help you write up an offer, that is unethical.
Procurring cause is determined by who initiated the uninterrupted chain of events that resulted in you writing an offer. Is the agent you like a family member or giving you a rebate? If you like the house, stay in the deal and let the agent you want to get paid make the case through his broker to the other broker. IMOP, he/she should be happy with half commission six months after closing if it goes to arbitration. Arbitration boards HATE deceptive practices of lazy agents that sell out of their convenient area and jump in once a property is found and write it up. That is strongly discouraged and scrutinized.
This is America my dear.. let the guy vent. Maybe he met a highair just wanna get paid so I can go on vacation crappy Realtor and is just over it, and odds are he met more than one.
With all due respect to you and all your experience..
this is the state of new jersey and I believe real estate laws vary a little bit from stste to state no?
like isnt dual agency illegal...in some states?
its legal here in new jersey...
in John defense ..he is a local new jersey agent/broker..and might understant NJ rules and regs better...
Im not a broker or national trainer..but I do have a vast comprehension of NEW JERSEY real estate ethics and rules and regs..
In your state I dont have a clue..
I forgot to ask if nittanylion was a penn state grad. my guess would be yes. Let us not take ourselves so serious I mean for chr_ _ts sake we are only sales people not rocket scientist we aren't saving the world.
Keep the humor coming I'm loving it.
my new thing will be asking buyers to sign a buyers agency agreement..BEFORE showing any homes..
However..I will offer a cancellation guarantee..
1.If at any time PRIOR to make an offer, If you dont feel Im the right agent or..
I didnt deliver on my promises..You can fire me..but it goesw both ways..
If the client starts being unethical then I can fire THEM at any time..ZERO RISK...to either parties..
1.If the client is not comfortable signing yet..no problem..we can make the agreement only for
today on the homes we see today..and if at the end you dont feel comfortable and confident
we can just rip up the agency agreement shake hands and go seperate ways..
2. If the buyer refuses to sign even for those homes and that day..thats cool..
I will gladly shake thier hands and wish them well in thier search..better for them..the client..
to look at homes with an agent they do feel comfortable and confident with...
In this market..unfortunately there are plenty of starving agents
who will allow themselves to be used and abused..and who lack the backbone to negitiate for themselves..
Is that the kind of agent you want? Negotiating on your behalf? one who cant even fight for thier own pockets? are you sure they would fight for your pockets?
This case needs to go to the Grievance Committee of the local Board of REALTORS(R). Call the executive officer of that association and get the paper work to file a complaint.
Missy, Thank you for your kind words and sorry that a loyal customer had a bad experience as loyal customers are hard to find. Nittany Lion, This situation is a total bummer. We are here to help, explain how this process and agency works. we are to protect the public, serve our customers and clients with morality, ethics and CARE. I donâ€™t give a rats butt about all of this back n forth about who is entitled to what. The listing agent is supposed to protect the seller and get them the highest and best offer. AND Make the deal WORK....
Who knows what the seller even knows about any of this. Did you ever go to the Broker?
Really a horrible story.
AGAIN...we as Realtors have a strong code of ethics to up hold which are pretty well written and pretty clear. We are here to serve and help the public....NOT make the transaction about us or put our interests or pocketbooks and wallets first. Really shameful. I agree with Missy...Something better is on the horizon.
My best CC
Carolyn Cavallaro Re/Max Villa Realtors
I did appreciate a few of the agents responding that the agents' job was to protect you. As for loyalty to an agent that does not always work out in favor of the client. I was loyal to my agent, addressed issues with him when they arose, informed him when I was going to attend open house, etc. In the end he lied to me and those lies cost me hundreds of dollars. When I sell and buy again (hoping soon to be able to do so) I would still sign with an agent, but I would be sure I knew how I could get out of the agreement if things didn't go well. If you like your agent then sign with him or her, but before you do ask how the agreement could be terminated if you feel the agent is not looking out for you needs and get that in writing. Do not feel guilty about having to move on to another agent.
You do have control, say, imput, opinion etc: on what agent/office you want to work with.
I am going to take a wild guess and say that you wouldn't even know about the commission hick-up unless your preferred agent made it known to you. Shame on that agent for whining about her/his mistake in dropping the ball when they first met you. Your preferred agent should have done their due diligence on your first meeting by asking you if you have worked with any other agents, and you say this is the smarter agent?
I also find it hard to believe that you didn't mention that you had seen this house with another agent.
And you tracked down the listing agent to get the updates on your offer ? yet you still think your preferred agent is the smarter agent?
My advice would be for you to sit down with your preferred agents broker explain everything that has happened and ask that the broker contact the first agent and listing agents broker (one in the same as you've stated) and make sure you're interests are being handled properly.
As far as walking away, sounds like you don't want the house, so walk if you don't want it ,there is that other offer who will thank you for walking away. Again walking away is something you do have control over.
Good Luck to you and every agent that works with buyers and doesn't do their due diligence
I have served in the past on the Ethics Committee at my Assocation and we see this too often. Especially when there seem to be more realtors than there are buyers in the market place.
What you are describing is one of the problems that I have with what we call in the industry "procuring cause." This may be an Ethics violation between the agents - nothing more. You have every right to have whomever you want to represent you. The agents should not involve you with this issue. I would dare say that if the seller knew that this was going on, the listing agent would not have that listing any longer. His/her job is to get his seller's property sold. Plain and simple. The Ethics issue can and should be handled after the closing at the local real estate association. There is certain documentation that has to be in place for the listing agent to be owed a commission. Did they have you sign an agency disclosure? Did they have you sign a Buyer Agency Agreement. Have they shown you other properties? Have they kept an open chain of communication with you without interruption. Simply opening a door does not entitle an agent to a commission. Sadly, another disappointment in realtor behavior.
As Realtors, it is our responsibility to tell you how the process works regarding the process of working with us, how we will help you and the level of commitment we expect in return. Being that this was not explained to you,
you have done nothing wrong. You cannot go back so move forward.
100% get the Broker or office manager involved, get them to resolve the commission issue by leaving you out, and ask that the Broker/Office manager oversee the negations. I would also stay strong on wanting to work with the 2nd Realtor that you are comfortable working with. No one should force anyone to work with someone they do not want to work with.
The community jumped in as we are truly about what is right as an industry. One bad experience tends to taint our good name as Realtors. We truly are as an industry here to help consumers make the biggest decision of their lives and we do it because we love helping people. This is why the best dedicate their lives to this field.
CC Carolyn Cavallaro Re/Max Villa Realtors Jersey City NJ
The first agent is entitled to a commission, not all of it but a portion of it... The person above who mentioned the first agent is not entitled, its not true...its called procuring cause...but they should leave you out of it...
- doctor require PHD and pass an exam to practice
- CPA require to graduate with super high GPA, work at top organization for a number of years, and pass an exam
- nail tech require 150hours of school and pass an exam
- real estate agent require 60hours of school and pass an exam
Real estate agent will get $8,400 on a home that costs $280k. When was the last time you pay $8,400 to your pcp, accountant, attorney etc? and what did you get out of it?
Real estate agent provides the following
- scheduling appointment
- travel from point A to point B
- seeing places
- get general location info
- help with paperwork to complete a transaction
Reminds me of my parents tour trip to China, where $8,400 also include airflight, hotel stay, and 3 meals per day... and a personal assistant to help fill out any paperwork to travel oversea. Even better, I sent a family of 5 on a cruise to Bahamas for $5k and that include all transportation, excursion and photography package.
That said, how much should you pay for someone just to schedule appointment, open door and tour the place? It's like a visit to a very small museum. Pay for the entrance fee which should cover for any overhead.
you have a right to choose the Realtor that you trust and want to work with. Listing and buyer agents should work together to make sure that the deal goes through regardless who gets the commission. For that purpose both Realtors can go to their local board and solve that issue after the closing and the Board will decide whos and how much each one will get paid.
I hope you close soon and everybody gets what they deserve.
Obviously it has some value for my wife but a good argument for betrayal and hurt feelings for the others.
We deal with choices every day. We hurt some people even unintentionally. I congratulate you on your tenacity and you are paying for the consequences of your decision. Regardless how it turns out live by your decision and do not be surprised by the inconvenience it may present. It never feels good to be given up for someone else. As it is in most cases the end justifies the means. You may loose the house but you gained the respect of someone you value. â€œBravoâ€ In the end this agent may reciprocate your choice and find you a better house.
Personally I donâ€™t mind people fighting over me I could watch for hours and get a kick out of it. Now that I am old and used unfortunately even my wife doesnâ€™t want me . I could understand how the other agent feels.
There is a mediation process here in Oklahoma, and I am sure there is one there in New Jersey also. Your local real estate commission and your local Board can assist you with your rights. They can look into the matter.
It is my understanding that unless you have signed a Buyer Broker service agreement binding you to the first REALTOR ( another words if you did not sign papers binding you to the first REALTOR, you have the option to use any REALTOR you choose that you are comfortable with. But the second REALTOR needed to ask you if you were working with a REALTOR. If you say yes, then by our Code of Ethics we are to refer you to your 1st REALTOR. But if you did not answer yes I have been working with another REALTOR, or if you discussed your situation that the 1st REALTOR did not make you comfortable or you did not trust the 1ST REALTOR; you can use what ever REALTOR that does make you comfortable.
I came across a buyer that had me show them properties, and then I found out that they were working with a REALTOR, so I discussed with them that they needed to go to their REALTOR because I could not help them, since another REALTOR was working with them. They proceeded to tell me that they were not satisfied with the first REALTOR. They did not want to continue to use the first REALTOR, and so I continued to work with the buyers, but only because they were not happy with the first REALTORS services, which buyers have every right to work with a REALTOR that they are comfortable with, as long as the Buyer is not legally bond by a Buyer Broker Service Agreement to a REALTOR.
You should speak to your real estate attorney for legal advice. As I understand it, if you offered full price, with no contingency upon the sale of another property, you may have a case to take this to court. Both agents have a right to sue the seller for commissions as well. The agents brought a ready, willing and able buyer to the table and they deserve to be compensated as promised. Usually the seller, when faced with this, will reconsider their position.
Sorry to hear about your situation. A buyer should NEVER be caught up in a commission dispute. Do not walk away from this property. Trust me when I say that you will always think "what if?" Allow the agents and brokers to work out the commission. If your 2nd agent will not let this go through because of his commission, then you may want to reconsider using him. His interest should be in assisting you. Have a wonderful day and good luck!
You surely had to go through a wringer for this....
Did the seller accept another offer? If not, and it's still actively offered for sale, something doesn't seem right.
Depending on your offer, some of the objections a seller would have may be due to the terms and conditions. But a full price offer should at least merit a counteroffer.
It sounds more and more like the listing agent is making decisions for the seller, and may not have even presented the offer, out of spite.
Since you have a RE attorney, perhaps your attorney can draft a strongly worded letter questioning the situation and demanding an answer.
Did you have your agent or you call that listing agents broker to verify this?
at this point dont trust that listing agent... the seller might not have even seen that offer...
PM me, I'll tell you exactly what to do..you and your agent...after that step..
1.You have a right to your own representation.period.
2.The listing agent doesnt represent you..they were hired by the seller...I dont care what they tell you
3. Make sure you view properties with the agent you want to represent you.
1. have your agent CALL THE BROKERS OF RECORD of the offending agents ASAP..if they will not respond
2. You have Recourse..If they blow you off..Threaten to lodge a consumer complaint with the Real estate Commission against the offending agent and brokerage
3. have your agent offer the other agent or listing agent some form of compensation..to expidite the process
Dont lose your cool, be understanding to the ones who showed the property
, be firm, but be respectful of the agent or listing agent who showed the property
offer them compensation, try to get your agent to work it out...
if you cannot get the agents to play nice..call thier brokers and complain..
if the brokers blow you off threaten to lodge a complaint against the agent and brokerage
with the state real estate commission..which in nj is under the dept of banking and insurance
the last would only be a last resort..
goodluck and godspeed,
I feel that you should stay working with the agent that you are most happy with. If the property that you are interested in is the property of choice go for it and don't let it go. The broker at the agency will have to settle the commission and should not be your problem, unless you are under a contract with that agent / broker.
I hope my advice helps.
It doesn't matter who deserves the commission. That should not be your worry unless you signed an agreement to pay commission directly to an agent.
If the bickering continues, stand your ground and contact the local real estate association and/or licensing board for advice. Their job is to ensure that the public is treated fairly in regard to real estate transactions. It would be a travesty if you could not purchase the home of your choice eventhough the seller is willing to sell it to you, due to a feud between the agents, over commissions.
Good luck to both of you.