Home Buying in Palm Coast>Question Details

Joel McKinney, Home Buyer in 32129

Can I bid on multiple short sales at the same time?

Asked by Joel McKinney, 32129 Fri Apr 17, 2009

My real estate agent tells me I can only bid on one short sale at a time and that I shouldn't even bother with them because they take so long, but I've heard from multiple other sources that I can bid on multiple short sales at the same time. So which is it? Is my real estate agent lying to me just to steer me away from short sales so he can get paid quicker?

Help the community by answering this question:


Ok, OK !!
I have bitten a banker a time or two. Bit a guy from DB, and I have to tell you he tasted just like Chicken mit Sauerkraut. Need to “Chase” banker bites with strong adult beverages. That’s a banker pun. . . . . . . .. . . Chase is a Bank . . . hint. I had a RLC and he didn’t want to honor. In NYC had a ball with an AE lawyer on a direct mail program. He had a famous name and a Harvard Law degree and he accused me of pulling a fast on him, me, little old me, a Florida boy???? How could this be so? As this a family post, I will not tell you what that bite tasted like.
Can’t tell you how upset I am with Ross for picking on Real Estate Agents, Florida agents no less. Bet she is one of those Carpetbaggers from the North.
I am crushed!
You know things are bad when we start eating our own. Ross threw me to the investor wolves!!!!! Now, everyone can fill in what a Florida Real Estate Agent tastes like. . . . . .
I don’t go to Palm Coast to play Real Estate, I stay where I know what going on, or where I can add. This issue is not a Palm Coast specific issue. I have not, will not, offer to help Multiple short sale Joel out with his transaction. I do work West Volusia, have some real estate in Ormond, helping a lawyer friend out of Orlando with some real estate issues he has in Palatka. I don’t even comment on VA not SC issues, but I have sued people in Federal Court in both places.

Everyone in both states tastes like pork rinds, South Carolina has a more saltly taste.

You know, everyone seems very comfortable telling a FIRST time buyer it’s perfectly OK to make many short sale offers at once. May I suggest too those so intent, it’s really a great Idea to learn to juggle – starting by juggling sharp knives, as starting with rubber balls only retards the learning process.

If a first time buyer came to me and said he wanted to make 3 or 4 offers on short sales, in hopes to find one house to live in, I would advise him not to do so, as risk out weight possible rewards, and if he insisted, I would tell him to find a new agent. I would not recommend him an another agent on referral, well maybe Ross.

Folks, to me life is too short to go were the gunfights are, especially when the company you take with you is rearing to go with no fire arm experience. I have been in gunfights before, Real ones, and ones in court. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars a month, per case, for years and years.

By the way if you are hanging around Beaufort one of my best friends, Jim Myers, has retired there (USC Law School 1970 I think) Lives on ICW on Lady Island- He was the Myers of http:/Myersbigel.com. He did my Patent, Trademark and Unfair Trade practices law for some 30 years. Last year we rented a good sized houseboat and cruised the St. Johns River for a week. I often stop by his home and spend time when I am traveling to see my son, his wife and my only grandbaby (now 5 months old). Will be there next month (if we drive) on the way to see my oldest son graduate from Med School in North Carolina. He will be at U of F Gainesville Shands Hosp for next 3 years – so I am a happy camper.

I guess it’s my age is the reason, but I think short sales should be the providence of seasoned investors. Folks like Dp2, HHI, Ms Ross, folks that know the landscape, know the hardware, know the players. One can have fun and profit, in short sales, a great chase with thrills along the way.

I just can’t recommend to a first time buyer looking for a home to live in, to start firing belt feed fully automatic contracts at the bankers.

But, if in your best judgment, you think Joel should open fire, with what appears to be modest resources, then maybe I am wrong and far too conservative for this fast moving Real Estate market.

YES, I THINK THERE IS A RIGHT ANSWER FOR JOEL. Sorry you all disagree with it.
1 vote Thank Flag Link Thu Apr 23, 2009
John, again I have to admit that I enjoy your wit. :)

Believe it or not several of the agents I know have advanced degrees from Ivy League universities, and most of the agents I know take lots of continuing education classes (on a variety of topics), so they all can't be that "sparsely educated".

Actually, I prefer REOs to short-sales for similar reasons to the ones that John gave--only I approach the buy side of the transaction from an investor's perspective. I don't mind waiting however long I need to wait for a transaction to go through; I just need to make sure that the yield justifies the wait--before I initiate that transaction. Another reason why I prefer to deal with REOs is that some states--like VA--have "right of redemption periods" which give the foreclosed borrower an opportunity (typically up to 6 months after the gavel has fallen) to come up with the money to repurchase the property. Although redemptions typically don't happen, I prefer to play it safe.

Yes, I realize that some banks will reject or counter offers with an assignment provision, and others will accept them. One never knows what they'll accept until one makes an offer. Besides, John, you and I both know that there are plenty of ways to work around any objection to an assignment clause: for example, one could purchase the property with an entity, and sell that entity. Yes, I also know that many bank addenda contain a clause that specifies a "seasoning period" before one may resell that property, and I'm sure you know that there are several ways to work around that using creative financing.

Most of the time, I tend to use assignments just like you, John; however, I also take the approach that it's none of the seller's business HOW I'll close the transaction. The seller only needs to be concerned THAT the transaction will close properly.

John, I bet that as a CEO that you didn't--and probably still don't as an agent--always let the banks steamroll over you on all of their terms. I'm sure you push back on a few things, and you yield on other things. Negotiation is both an art and game. I start with presenting my wish list knowing that the bank will counter with its own wish list, and we'll hopefully meet somewhere in-between.

Joel, the point is that each of us has our own style of negotiating. I have a deep and profound respect for most agents, although I don't always agree with their approach. A few of my investing mentors were--and still are--agents. For many agents, their primary objective is to get a deal done; whereas, my primary objective is to make some money from every deal I do. You'll find that what John's telling you will work; similarly, you'll also find that what Darin and I are telling you also will work--albeit somewhat differently. Keep in mind that we're not buying low just because we can; rather, we're doing so in order to lock in our profit on the back-end. After all, . . . the profit is made on the buy, and it's realized on the sell.
1 vote Thank Flag Link Thu Apr 23, 2009
Don't worry . . . you didn't stir up a hornet's nest. :)

Your question is valid, and it often polarizes. Darin and I are investors; we like to make multiple offers. It's been my experience that some agents are strongly for this, and others are strongly against this. Although I haven't encountered any agents who take a more centrist position on this issue, I suspect there has to be at least one agent out there who does.

The point is both philosophies work in practice, so the key for you will be to select the method that will best match your personality, and then find an agent who's comfortable working that way.
1 vote Thank Flag Link Wed Apr 22, 2009
John, are you trying to audition for Def Comedy Jam, or are you trying to sell real-estate? Although I enjoy sarcastic humor, and although I found several of your jokes/comments to be funny, I'll have to let you decide whether your ends will justify your means. Don't get me wrong, . . . I can take it, and I can dish it back ten-fold. Nevertheless, I suspect that Joel didn't come here to be on set for "Who's Line Is It?"

Actually, bankers hate my contingencies just as much as I hate their addenda. Guess what?! It's a BUYERS' market, so boys and girls that means the buyer (me--in this case) has greater leverage. Although the banks don't have to sell their properties to me, they eventually have to sell them. Yet, I don't have to buy them. With all of the inventory out there, I--the buyer--literally have my pick of the litter. The longer the banks keep holding on to their precious properties waiting for the "perfect" offer with the right blend of contingencies to fall into their laps like manna from heaven, the more they'll continue to lose in holding costs on each property. In time, the banks will find the wait to be more costly than accepting my terms.

So, John, in case you missed it, I'll "explain it to [you] like [you're] a five-year-old" (I loved that line from Philadelphia). One of the methods that I use to push-back is the Mahatma Gandhi method: I wait them out.

Incidentally, I never cross my fingers for any transaction, because I don't believe in luck or chance. I believe everything happens for a reason, and I believe in providence. If an opportunity is meant for me, then I'll receive it at the right time--and not a moment sooner.

As for the assignments, . . . John, did you get your license out of box of Honeycomb? Surely, if you've actually represented any buyers on any (pre-)foreclosures, REOs, or short-sales, then I hope you actually read through each contract, and you should have seen that all asset managers put their John Hancock on the appropriate signature line along with "and/or assigns". Also, all contracts are assignable according to contract law, unless expressly prohibited, and handwritten terms trump all of the other verbiage. The bankers do assignments, and I do them too.
1 vote Thank Flag Link Wed Apr 22, 2009
"Darin, tell Joel how to handle the situation if he makes 3 offers and gets 3 acceptances, and the banks demands performance? He needs to hear this from you, the short sale pro.
Can Joel close on three?
Can Joel cover the costs of getting three rehabbed? "

First, Joel could have submitted all of his offers with a copy of the EMD check (with the appropriate numbers blacked out), and with a contingency clause stating that he'll close on the first accepted offer and rescind all of the others.

Second, Joel could close on 1 of the 3, and assign the other 2 to other buyers.

Third, Joel could work with a hard money lender to get a blanket mortgage to fund the purchase and rehab of all 3 properties, and he could either hold and refinance all 3 properties, or flip 1 or more of them.

"Have you ever seen a bank push their weight around at the table?"

Although I can't speak for Darin, I know I have. Incidentally, I've pushed back, won, and lived (and still live) to tell about it.
1 vote Thank Flag Link Tue Apr 21, 2009
1) As I had stated before....If he decides to use a Realtor, use a Knowledgable Realtor who is familiar with, specializes in, and has been successful with short sales. Interview a few Realtors until you feel comfortable that they are a good "Partner" if you will.

2) Joel needs to do his OWN due diligence (just like every human being should do before they acquire a property). This is usually where his Newly appointed Knowledgable Realtor would come in. One that will actually work WITH him to find what he's looking for.

3) For a Realtor to forgo showing houses (no matter what state of ownership it is) because it's a hassle, is wrong. There is even case law which a Realtor was sued for NOT showing a property which met the specific criteria of thier client. Too many Realtors (many of whom have addmitted to me) skip over listings which are harder to access, have limited showing availability, etc. Let THEM (the client) make that decision!!! The client is HIRING the Agent to do a job. Don't short change them.

4) What IF a hurricane blows the house down the day before you close on it. What IF the seller passes away and is the sole owner of the property. What IF the termite inspector doesn't do a good job. What IF I'm having a bad hair day, What IF, What IF....... These can happen in a NORMAL transaction. You're making a short sale sound like armeggedon. Yes they are more difficult but if this is a route that Joel wants to explore then so be it. It will take more time and effort.

5) It IS possible to withdraw your other offers but it will be more difficult because there are more lines of communication to go through. If your newly appointed Knowlegable Realtor stays on top of things, this should be a tad easier. I suggest to use time specific contingencies when making offers. Banks tend to not be a big fan of these however. As Josh, most likely, is a Non-Investor, he may not want to be making offers on too many properties at one time. It could get a little sticky.

Here's the short of this whole point. FIND SOMEONE WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH SHORT SALES, whether you partner with an investor or use a Realtor.

Joel...I agree with John when he said that the question is not "what are the odds". We're not in Vegas. If I knew that, I WOULD BE an expert. There is no textbook that tells anyone that. Different banks/lenders work at different speeds and have multiple lines of communication to go through.

I am here to share some information that may be of some use to the public and to look at things from other angles or points of view. I cannot determine the value of Joel's need for a short sale nor the time, effort, or risk he is willing to put into it. That is something that HE must decide..........NO! Wait! Here is my magic 8-Ball.......I'm shaking it........oh well. It says, "MAYBE SO".
1 vote Thank Flag Link Tue Apr 21, 2009
I just want to agree with Mari Parks, she gave you the best straight answer. I don't know what some of the other comments were, mostly just babbling; too bad this forum is supposed to be for professionals.
Denis Logan
Palm Coast, Realtor
0 votes Thank Flag Link Tue Sep 22, 2009
Hi Joel,

I would not advise that you put in multiple offers for one reason, if you do not put and addendum that clearly states your intentions on multiple offers, and you have two or more binding contracts at one time.
Everyone may say that the banks are slow, but if your Realtor gets caught up in the sale of the first one and forgets to cancel the second, third, or what ever the amount you sign and put in, you can have legal problems, you now could have multiple acceptance, which means you have bought more than one home.

Clearly it is risky to do multiple offers with out proper language included in your contract. Best bet is to find the perfect home, put the right offer in, have your Realtor pull area compairable properties to submit with the offer to the bank. This helps to make your offer stronger. Hope this helps. Welcome to Palm Coast!

Best Wishes,
Mari Parks
Broker/Owner Take Action Properties, LLC
0 votes Thank Flag Link Thu Sep 10, 2009
Get a BPO/CMA, check to see how many other liens are on the property, and schedule an appointment with the buyer to view the property (and have 3 GCs to meet you there, walk the property, and submit a bid for the work estimate)--before you make an offer--because you want to make sure that $130K also isn't too much to pay. Assuming there are other liens, you'll also want to offer slightly less than the BPO/CMA value minus an average of the work estimates to ensure that you'll also have a little to settle with the other lien holders--making sure to stress to them that they either settle with you on a fractional amount or they lose altogether when the property goes into foreclosure.

Doing all of that will please your lender, but it might not please the seller or his/her lender. Although you might think that offering the list price is a safer bet, doing that probably will jeopardize your prospects of obtaining conventional financing--especially if that property appraises for less than the BPO/CMA value.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Wed May 6, 2009
Ok, so the best house I can find is a short sale. Since time is not a huge issue for me, I will be puttting an offer on the one single short sale and wait to see what happens. The asking price is a little too high for my budget at $145,000 and I will be putting in an offer for $130,000.

Any advice that might improve my chances of being accepted?
0 votes Thank Flag Link Wed May 6, 2009
Hope all agree Kristi will be the flavor of the month.

But we have to name it. . . .

"Krispi Kristi"

And for the record. I made my first REO sale 31 Dec 1979 for Bank of North Carolina N.A. (now Wachovia) Jim Roberson, Banker - 1,200 acres in Banner Elk, NC on the courner of NC 105 and Tynecastle blvd - Clubhouse, motel and seveal upscale homes - Robert Schwebke buyer.

1/2 my age indeed!
0 votes Thank Flag Link Sat Apr 25, 2009
I agree with Dp2 on all counts, but just want to answer the questions.

1. Can I bid on multiple short sales at the same time? Yes, if you know what you are getting into.

2. Is my real estate agent lying to me just to steer me away from short sales so he can get paid quicker?
Yes, most agents don't like or aren't qualified to do shortsales.

PS, I have worked with investors and have done many of the things Dp2 says, not all offers were accepted but I have been suprised by the many deals we did get.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Thu Apr 23, 2009
"I also think it is an excellent question as there is no right or wrong answer at this time. No two transactions are ever the same...and this is even more messed up with Short Sales and Bank Owned Properties"

I agree 100%, and couldn't have said it any better.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Thu Apr 23, 2009
Ugly breakfast- but back to Joel's question.

As your dumb Whit Real Estates person somehow surmised, Joel is a first time buyer, not so much for investment but for a home.. Joel, this changes everything.

You have available to you up to $ 8,000 TAX REBATE should you close by 1 Dec this years. So I again go back, to Find you a REO. Bet our "investors" will tell you a short sale might go on for weeks to end up at O again.

On the other hand, a REO, will allow you to make an offer, at a great price, get acceptance, close and then move in. It would seem your agent is trying to get you to focus on the possible, to make your deal, buy your home and move-in, raise a family be happy before you become an Investor. Complete this first deal first, then you can go out an battle the bank and various windmills of your choosing, from the comfort of your home.

BTW - an assignable contract is almost auto rejection from the banks view. I do use this with my international investment clients as we sometimes need to take title in a different form, esp with the British Isles people. I get around the bank kill by giving and and all profits such assignment to the banks.
This way the bank know our true purpose, that we are not being fancy.

0 votes Thank Flag Link Thu Apr 23, 2009
OMG the Honeycomb box attack. I had hope they would not go nuclear on this.

Yes its true all we Real Estate agents are sparsely educated, slow and dimwitted.

Yet, we somehow stumble around and close deals by finding ways to make things work between buyer and sellers. .

Having worked with banks for 40 years, involving many 100's of millions of MY money, I have learned
if you hug the belly of the beast, one can get things done. WOOPS off to Breakfast - currently at meeting at Gaylord Opryland Nashville and breakfast is calling
0 votes Thank Flag Link Thu Apr 23, 2009
Hey there Joel....

Don't worry about stirring up trouble. You will come to learn (if you decide to step into the world of investing) that Real Estate Agents and Real Estate Investors usually act like oil and water. LOL Many Agents think that Investors are too creative, cheap, want to take advantage of people. Many Investors get frustrated with Agents because they think that Agents are uncooperative and uneducated.

Hopefully we've gotten you to think about some new ideas and strategies. Some are more complicated and take more time than others. Risk can be minimized by educating yourself and thinking. That's the real key to learning what you can and can't do.

Some of my favorite quotes:
"We find comfort among those who agree with us.......Growth among those who don't." ~ Frank A. Clark

"One of the hardest things a person who is new to the way of business thinking has to go through is the countless number of people who will say to you: "You can't do that." ~ Robert Kiyosaki
0 votes Thank Flag Link Wed Apr 22, 2009
Wow... Didn't think I could stir up this much trouble, lol. Just wanted to let you know that I am keeping up with reading the responses. I also want to thank everyone for their input and constructive criticism.

By the way, I AM a first time home buyer just looking for a house to live in for now, but am interested in acquiring investment properties in the future.

0 votes Thank Flag Link Wed Apr 22, 2009
Banks love offers that have escape clauses, I know this to be true because Bankers are wild and crazy guys

Some banks only choose those offers with the most, best and coolest escapes. Always makes the offer stronger.
"Well Bank Boss, I choose this offer because the "buyer" had 35 ways to back out of the contact, most I have ever seen, a new indoor record, PLUS and this is the best part, it had REAL COOL contingents on two other transactions not happening" Looked like the best offer on the table.

And Dp2 has cool escape - lets see . . . on three contacts he makes offer contingent on the other two not being accepted - yep, I bet bankers tremble when you come into the room because you are going to push them around and treat them ruff. Breaking New ground in Contract law meeting the minds of the three stooges.

do you cross you fingers when you make an offer?

And I love the assignments to "OTHER buyers" Moe, Larry and Curly of the Real Estate world-


And I bet most HARD MONEY LENDERS would JUMP at the CHANCE to work with someone
that was buying three properties with out a clue - bet the APR is below 2% = the check is in the Mail.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Wed Apr 22, 2009

Case law for not showing Short Sales

Please site Same so that I might review.

Did Appeal hold?
0 votes Thank Flag Link Wed Apr 22, 2009
Darin makes good points, . . . for the experienced investor.
I have the feeling Joel might not have done this short sale thing before. As a matter of fact, I wonder how many homes Joel has bought! Being older than dirt, I have more than one investment, won some, lost some.
I agree, an experienced investor has little to no need of a Realtor, as we would just clog up the works. If that was all I did, figure I would be doing such as an investor not a real estate agent.
Darin informs us a buyer can make many offers. This is very true, why stop at 20?
Why indeed!
Darin, tell Joel how to handle the situation if he makes 3 offers and gets 3 acceptances, and the banks demands performance? He needs to hear this from you, the short sale pro.
Can Joel close on three?
Can Joel cover the costs of getting three rehabbed?
Tell Joel the costs involved, the issues, recourses and the downsides.
What cures breach?
Darin, have you ever seen a bank do something stupid and boneheaded?
Have you ever seen a bank push their weight around at the table?
Tell Joel.
I know, I am full of questions.
Darin says,
I also believe that it's a Realtor's duty to show ALL RELATIVE houses which fit the criteria of their clients!....Not just skipping the ones which are in ......"a playing field that is full of mud and issues that makes the difficult more so".
Everyone ready to get into the Short Sale market?
I disagree.
Darin, not everyone is a sharp, as highly trained and experienced as you. Some people are just looking for a home to live in, the right schools, the right neighborhood, the right distance from work. They are just looking for value, a place to raise their kids. To them this is not a leverage tool, it’s a home. More is going on than ROI. To take such a buyer into a Short Sale would be crime.
Darin, this is most of the people I come in contact.
Darin, in your vast experience, would you say a short sale involves more risk than a normal purchase?
Do you feel everyone is able to handle this risk? Let’s say, inspector misses termite damage, county condemns the building, cost to getting CO is $50,000, inspector is judgment proof. Now what?
Your buyers have sold their home; they need a place to live. What are you going to do?
Once I had a client that demanded I, as Realtor, Make the Judge, hear this, MAKE THE JUDGE; issue his ruling, NOW because the buyer was tired of waiting for the probate! Of course, I was to assure it was a ruling in his favor.
Yes, Joel, you can withdraw an offer, IF they have not already accepted it; all you have to do is to trust the banks to be prompt, reasonable and forthcoming. Talk to Momma! Or Darin.
We learn: "Life just isn't fair" . . . .Again!
"Momma told us there would be days like this!"
Then, Why is it always a surprise?
Question becomes: Did you notice withdrawal of offer before acceptance? How organized is the bank and their people? Here, a course or two in UCC would be helpful. Also, the golden rule applies: "He who has the money, Rules!"
Another good question. Say bank is dead wrong and you are 100% in the right. Question is:
“How much justice can you afford?”
You should be prepared for them to claim your earnest money. Of course you might have to sue to get it back, are you ready and prepared to take on a bank and their deep pockets?
Is this fair?
Can it happen, YES?
In thinking about a short sale, one should ask, are the gains worth the risk?
Another good question one should ask: "Is the Delta between a short sale buy great enough to
Overcome the risks thereof, over the buy of a REO or other "clean" deal?"
Lost Opportunities taken in account?
Results can vary.
Joel asks what are the odds of several offers being accepted at the same time?
As an economist, we study probability and statics.
Herein, we learn, "the odds of a peanut butter and Jelly sandwich falling jelly side down on the carpet approach 89% , if it happens"
In golf, it is said 76% of the puts that stop short of the hole, do not go in the hole.
Here is a fun place to go:
Joe, what the odds are is not the question. The question is what are you going to do if it happens!!!!
Darin has the answers.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Mon Apr 20, 2009
I have already got the prequalification letter and the realtor isn't REFUSING to go into short sales, only suggesting to stay away from them. I can withdraw all other offers once one is accepted though, right? What are the odds of multiple short sale offers being accepted at the same time if I were to put out 2 or 3 offers?
0 votes Thank Flag Link Sun Apr 19, 2009
Yes ........you can make multiple offers on short sales.

There are many reasons your Realtor told you that:
1) He/She doesn't really understand the whole process
2) He/She is trying to steer you away from short sales because it's too much hassle
3) He/She would rather have you make an offer the "Traditional" way so that they get their commission or fee sooner.
4) Should I continue?

There are even Short Sale Services that Investors use to make 10-20 offers at a time.

I've included the link to a recent article in our local paper which illustrates my point (Not that Mr. John Bennett didn't provide an excellent example of a typical Agent). I also believe that it's a Realtor's duty to show ALL RELATIVE houses which fit the criteria of their clients!....Not just skipping the ones which are in ......"a playing field that is full of mud and issues that makes the difficult more so". You have HIRED them to WORK FOR YOU.

Yes, REO's (Bank Owned Properties) tend to be cleaner where the title is concerned but there are some deals out there if a short sale is arranged properly.

My suggestion to you (for what it's worth) is to ditch your Realtor. If he/she is not willing to work in YOUR BEST INTEREST INSTEAD OF HIS/HERS, then how do you know they are truly negotiating on YOUR behalf. Find a knowledgable Realtor (if you really want to go that route) that is familiar and successful with short sales. You may even want to team up with an Investor who specializes in Short Sale Properties. And who knows...maybe you can even find a Realtor who is a Sophisicated Investor themselves.

Just some food for thought
~ Darin
HHI Investing, LLC
0 votes Thank Flag Link Sun Apr 19, 2009
Yes, you can bid, however you probably would not do it to avoid risk of losing your earnest money deposit. Firstly, you have to put some money - good faith deposit, to start process of negotiation. Law does not requires it, but seller may ignore offer without the deposit. Imagine, that your offers are accepted. Not just one, two or three. You still want and pre-approved for buying only one home. If you are in breach of contract, seller may hold the deposit. Risk of losing money is real in such situation.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Sun Apr 19, 2009
Short Sales are often very LONG events.

You can bid on all the property you want to buy.

In my experience, if one makes an offer and another accepts, all other things being in place, then you have a contract. You may break it, but its called breach in some circles.

I suggest to my clients to stay away from Short Sales. There are so many REO and other bargains around why get into a playing field that is full of mud and issues that makes the difficult more so.
0 votes Thank Flag Link Fri Apr 17, 2009
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