Ian, your answer is not only eloquent and thoughtful, but also very important. I don't think anyone could say it better. You humanized the "job,", and if everyone in any kind of sales or people-helping-people position thought about their job from your perspective this world would be a better place.

Wow Ian, you managed to make something that was said many different ways before fresh and relevant.
For that I gave you a thumbs up.
The problem isn't always greed though. Sometimes laziness and ignorance interefere with the ability to do right by your fellow human beings.
Thank you Ian, I appreciate your insight.
Well said.

The number one underlying issue that separates the professionals from the greedy can be expressed in so many of these answers (or underlying opinions).

A Realtor is supposed to represent a fellow human being and treat each and every fellow human in a manner that helps his/her client get the best value specific to that client...and nobody else.

If an agent chooses to force, haggle, talk too much, and overwhelmingly use their ego to drive a decision of a client they have, by definition failed not just as a Realtor, but as a human.

At the end of the day, the end of the closing and the end of our lives we are judged by our actions. The next time someone puts their faith in you...think about that first..and put your trump dreams aside for the better good of others. This is supposed to be a profession of helping others, not self serving people driving fancy leased cars big enough to fill our overblown egos and empty souls.

All this "protecting" mumbo jumbo...fancy words from fancy places...we need to reboot as an industry and foreclose on attitude and buyout greed replacing with honest information and real help to our fellow human beings.

..and for those that like to quote the national media on stats and figures...unless you are buying properties in a Nicholas "cage" all over the country...the ONLY news about real estate that counts at the end of the day is LOCAL news..LOCAL news and FACTS...it is amazing how the same people on the fence to buy will say they don't trust Washington, but yet they believe all the negative stats coming out of Washington.

At the end of the day, life and real estate is about long term gains..for the agent that puts others' life in perspective and themselves on the backburner, simmering a gumbo of clientele for life.

I can see both sides. As an agent working with a buyer, if my buyer goes to an open house, I would like them to protect me. As an agent doing an open, I would like the buyer who comes in to buy from me. Some agents do think their own buyer going to an open house without them is an excuse to come in at the last minute and get paid, some buyers use the "I have an agent" excuse because they just don't want to be bothered by the open house agent afterwards.

When we have an open house, we are supposed to be working in the best interest of our client, the seller, not in our own best interest. That said. . . in the case of this builder, he is free to just blow off a buyer if he wants. He is only hurting himself. Of course if he would let 3% stand between himself and a sale, IMO he is acting stupidly, but this is a free country, if he wants to hurt himself, he is free to do so.

Mack has a point and it is a little risky for a buyers agent to assume that a seller, builder, site agent, listing agent..whatever..is going to pay the buyer agency fee when they have not accompanied the buyer to the site just because they give their card. Some builders are simply not offering a commission so buyers may come in, hand their agents card over like they were instructed to do, be told the site agent represents the seller and still have no idea that they seller has no intention of paying the buyer agent and that those buyers (if they truly have a buyer agency agreement) will be responsible for any fee that their agent expects to get paid. Just because someone has a buyer agency agreement doesn't mean that they automatically get paid when their buyer finds a home. An offer of commission has to be made AND the agent has to have given evidence that they have complied with the rules regarding that offer of commission...and possibly proof it in court if there is doubt. There are a lot of sites around here that have said 'buyers agent must be present or have preregistered buyers prior to first visit'. There have also been a lot of builders that have not offered compensation and listings in the MLS offering a small flat fee. A buyer agency agreement is a totally different agreement than the commission agreement that the seller has with the listing agent. The site agent was probably saving that buyer from a very messy situation. If the buyer would have decided to buy anyway, they may have had to pay their agent themselves. If they really wanted to buy, they could have walked back out and called their agent so their agent could look up the listing or call the site and find out the compensation rules. Yes, if it is an 'open house' it is implied that people can come look. But Dan, the buyers should have had this discussion with their agent in advance. If you look up 'procuring cause' you'll probably understand a little more. I'll be honest, I didn't read you link that you posted but it's still a simple fact that the buyer broker agreement is an agreement with the buyer and buyers agent and does not automatically apply to the seller and his/her agreement with their agent.

Regarding the open house throw out! In our neck of the woods, we provide an MLS website to all of our buyers who are looking for a home. The link allows them to see interior photos , tax rates etc. In addition to our MLS open house registry, there are a number of websites where buyers can see the week's open house lists.
The tradition we have in Cleveland, (or courtesy, rather), is that a potential buyer is asked when they enter the OPEN if they are working with a realtor. If they say NO, they are considered potential new clients to the host agent.
Our buyer will say YES, and state our name, but even a simple yes will suffice. The open house agent will show the home and honor us and our buyers. The buyer may have already signed an buyers agreement to work with us. New home open houses are handled in much the same way in most cases.

The buyer will have obtained the information about the listing initially through us. They may not have seen the home with us present, because lets face it, we can't be everywhere every Sunday. Once in a while agents need weekends for their OWN families, tending to elderly parents, or taking their kids to see colleges. It doesn't mean we give up our pay because our client of many months decides to tour an open house on a Sunday drive.

Happy that our agents extend this courtesy and appreciate the many hours we spend away from our families to help our clients.

No, Don, they were not "thrown out." They were told that the builder is not paying a commission to agents that don't accompany their buyers. They decided to leave because they didn't want to buy from the site agent.
Builders are often like a hybrid FSBO; they hire licensed agents - often Realtors(r) - but they don't really want to pay a commission to an agent when the buyer "finds it themselves."

The Selling Office Commission isn't an hors d'oeuvre sitting on a tray for anyone to partake from. And while you and I might argue that It Would Benefit The Developer To Make That Commission Easier To Get, the fact of the matter is that when a buyer calls up a FSBO for a showing appointment and then runs off to get their agent, a lot of FSBOs don't want to pay a commission, either.

And guess who never wants to write the Commission Check: the Buyer.

Mack, when a buyer goes into an open house they actually expect to (gasp) be able to look around the house in an open manner. Was there anything in the open house ad that said bring your own realtor of you have one? I think not. It said open house. To a buyer that means come on over and take a look.

"We were then politely informed about the selling agency has a strict policy that buyers working with an agent must be accompanied by their buying agent."

In that case the buyer was thrown out of an open house just because they did not have an agent with them. Would they have been thrown out if they said they had no agent? NO.

The point is simple. The realtor make a decision to not allow honest buyers to look at a property they might have wanted to buy. WHY should a buyer not be able to look at an open house because they come alone? Lots of buyers come into open houses alone. It saves both realtors and buyers time and hassle.

The realtor in that case did not allow them to look. That is arrogance AND gives all realtors a bad image.
Q. What would it have hurt to let those people look at the house?
A. NOTHING!!! But it does add to a bad image towards realtors. It also made the seller look like one to avoid because of a policy that is not needed or posted.

Any buyer who is interested in a house can always come back later with their own agent. They can ask any questions they have. But once they are told to leave they will lose their interest in the property.

What is the purpose of an open house?
Buyers think it is to look at the house (true)
Realtors think it is a way to get new clients, not to sell a house. That is a serious conflict of interest. And this realtor could have lost a sale over a policy that has no reason to exist. (see black eye now?)

I agree with Alexandra from East Hampton. Although I love being a Realtor, I don't think the general public knows how much time. money and effort it takes to be a one; not to mention we are on call 24/7, and the gas taking prospective buyers out, etc. As many of you do , I spend a lot of time at my local Board of Realtors taking classes and continuing educational courses above and beyond what is required to stay licensed, so that I can better assist buyers and sellers, and to stay on top of the current market trends. I do think the general public thinks that it's easy to become a realtor and to work as one - which is not so. I don't know about other realtors but I work twice as hard at being a good realtor than any other job I've ever had (and most of my prior jobs were extremely difficult.) Therefore any commission I've earned is well deserved.

Dan, first one I checked, I don't see the problem.

"We were then politely informed about the selling agency has a strict policy that buyers working with an agent must be accompanied by their buying agent."

Point being?

It sounds like most agents would appreciate the NAR, supposedly OUR lobby group, educating the public about what we do.
~~~~~~~~~~
I've been saying that for a long time.

I think a lot of the perspective that agents and others have at this time is how they are doing and feeling about them self's. It is your own perspective that can stop others from saying thing that have no place in our lives.

Best

Ron

Excellence
http://www.healdsburgpestcontrol.com

Banks Raise Mortgage Qualification Standards (blog says " Therefore, if you’re on the fence about whether now is a good time to buy a home, remember that, along with an increase in mortgage approval standards, home values are rising, too. Acting sooner is probably better than acting later. " (question follows) But if credit is getting tighter wouldn't that mean that less people can buy so prices would drop?

First Time Home Buyer Tax Credit Extension Likely ( yes it passed, but look at this statement "Harry Reid that was held on Wednesday a comment was released that the governemnt should "continue efforts to strengthen the housing market by extending the home buyer tax credit. Economist Mark Zandi at Moody's Economy.com says not extending the credit as more foreclosures continue to hit the market will only continue to drive home prices down." )
http://www.trulia.com/blog/jon_sutton/2009/10/first_time_hom…

Banks make it harder to get loans so get yours now, how does it make sense?
http://www.trulia.com/blog/bob_phillips/2009/11/banks_raise_…

FAQ's on Homebuyer Federal Tax Credit
http://www.trulia.com/blog/rosemarie_rivicci/2009/11/faq_s_o…
Comments By JOE RUNFOLA, ITI, Thu Nov 12 2009, 05:11
Do you think subsidies raise prices? and are house prices are already too high?
Do Consumer subsidies puff up buying power, which artificially increases demand, which raises prices?
That is a wonderful question. Do realtors consider it at all?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now lets consider other facts the realtors do not mention

Housing prices forecast to fall in 2010 -- and could keep falling for years
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/10/21/housing-prices-foreca…

went to open house, was asked to leave http://forums.redfin.com/rf/board/message?board.id=Boston&am…

Housing Crash to Resume on 7 Million Foreclosures, Amherst Says
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aw6_…

prices will likely keep falling through at least 2011. And there's at least 20% downside left.
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-housing-market-2009-4

Foreclosures: 'Tide may be turning' ( a blog on here, it makes no sense compared to the other links)
http://www.trulia.com/blog/catherine_cataletto/2009/11/forec…

Foreclosures for Sale High in 10 States with Budget Problems ( one nice realtors blog I found)
http://www.trulia.com/blog/cassiano_travareli/2009/11/forecl…

Home-Purchase Index in U.S. Plunges to Lowest Level Since 2000 ( nice realtors blog being honest)
http://www.trulia.com/blog/richard_sites/2009/11/home-purcha…

Aside from a few small comments I made no assessments in this posting. Look at the blogs I referenced. Look at the links that show how the blogs are not showing the real picture. It seems to me that realtors are shooting themselves in the feet without help from anyone. This does not include tons of "the buyers bribe is here, it now includes previous house owners get it now before it is to late".

Realtors on here say things like

Now Is The Time To Buy!
http://www.trulia.com/blog/ginnylee7/2009/11/now_is_the_time…

The Government wants to give you Money!
http://www.trulia.com/blog/lisa_otto/2009/11/the_government_…

Good news for buyers: Fed to leave key rate unchanged
http://www.trulia.com/blog/coronado/2009/11/good_news_for_bu…
(opinion follows) We all know that people have a certain amount of income they can spend on a house. When interest rates go up the house prices will go down. A $1,000 payment is the same no matter if interest costs $50 or $400 of that amount. So buying now with low interest rates will create upside down loans for that reason alone. (end of opinion)

Top Five Reasons Buyers Should Buy NOW
http://www.trulia.com/blog/melissa_loughridge_savenko/2009/1…

tax credit extended & expanded! (includes..."It's ever apparent that the tax credit has worked to stimulate the economy. With rates low, as they are, it just makes sense to purchase." )
http://www.trulia.com/blog/nicole_brule-fisher/2009/11/tax_c…

When will mortgage rates go up? Buyers please read ( it ignores the inverse relationship between price and interest rates)
http://www.trulia.com/blog/dave_sutton_windermere_walnut_cre…

One in 20 will buy next year because...we've bottomed out
http://www.trulia.com/blog/bryan_robertson/2009/11/one_in_20…

Well actually JR

I've been around Trulia for awhile now (approx 1800 comments) we have talked often, been on many of the same threads ect... JR you know I have often said Good Agents deserve every penny they get, I have defended Agents, the industry on occasion and have never never never said Agents are Bad people, don't use them, they are dumb, or any of the common BS often tossed about in this Forum....

That being said I honestly have become very turned off by what I'm going to call the whining.

I am not especially smart but I'm not stupid either (That comment will most likely start another debate ;)
I know Agents work for commission and I know they have expenses and I know they have pride in what they do and I know they don't get paid until they close, I know there are bad agents and good agents and I know times are tough.....

However.......For quite awhile now this forum has seen many threads and comments about from Agents about the lack of respect they get, nobody understands, we are like doctors/lawyers, the ignorant public, we don't get paid enough (Talk to the broker about the commission split they have with agents), if we charged by the hour, the public is lucky we help them here for free... yada yada...The whining is a little overwhelming sometimes and I sometimes do wonder why Agents stay in a Profession they whine about so often in public forums...

My point in mentioning the other jobs/professions was that everyone of them will have people saying the same things..We don't get paid what we are worth..we get no respect ect...

My main point is people are not going to begin Respecting the Profession or Agents because Agents go on and on about they don't get respect....Whining is not a good way of educating the public and these types of comments/threads come across as whining IMO not any form of education.....No one is going to read any of this stuff and come to the conclusion that they should have respect for the industry, rather they are going to come to the conclusion that Agents whine a lot in just about every thread about how they aren't treated right by a public to stupid to understand the difficulties of being an Agent.....Great message and PR (The public is to stupid/uninformed/ignorant to understand us/our profession)

This is an Internet Forum where Agents can build a better understanding of what they do with the public and where the public can learn that Agents are a needed and worthwhile part of the RE process.

My contention is that this whining does nothing to contribute to that and that no one (except agents) are really all that interested in hearing Agents go on and on about how the public needs to be educated about how Agents don't get the respect they deserve......Answering questions instead of spamming earns respect, actually helping someone with a problem earns respect, being available to explain things earns respect, honesty earns respect (sometimes even from those who disagree with you) but constantly reading..... We get no respect, we don't get paid enough, we have expenses, the public needs to treat us better is not going to get one single person to decide Agents should be respected more.....most likely it will have the opposite effect IMO.

That's not to say it isn't an issue or should never be mentioned but I am saying as LOUDLY as possible....

THIS TOPIC HAS REACHED OVERKILL, STOP BEATING THE HORSE.........

It sounds like most agents would appreciate the NAR, supposedly OUR lobby group, educating the public about what we do. There IS a lot of ignorance out there.
That being said, although I know how much the busy agents work, and I know there are people who understand and appreciate what we do, I think we need to take a different approach than just saying how hard we work.
What's that expression? The proof is in the pudding. I have no idea why that means what it means but I know what it means. Get my meaning?
I have received 1 commission check since starting work April 1. And it was on a low-end house and I had to pay a referral fee. I do believe I earned every bit of that money.
However, I DO understand the resentment out there. After closing costs, lawyer fees, realty transfer fee (in NJ anyway), 5-6% commission hurts. Especially these days when sellers are already hurting.
These days real estate is a tough profession. But lets please admit it, there are times in the past when houses practically sold themselves and agents WERE making A LOT of money and they might have been busy, but didn't necessarily have to put a lot of effort into what they were doing.
There is usually some truth behind general perception. I believe agents need to have some understanding as to where those perceptions come from, pressure the NAR to educate the public about our job, have no tolerance for mediocrity, be open-minded about pay structure, take responsibility for our actions, and keep on keeping on!

I still see a lot of hurt in many of these post...  To me it show an inside view of how slow some agents are. Money is a the back bone of every sale. Some agents I work with are doing very good in this market and others are not. many have had to move out of the area of the North bay And many have gone off to work in others jobs...  Just remember many are not doing all that well in this new market.  4 or 5 years ago it was easy now its another day.BestRonEXCELLENC http://Ewww.sebastopolpestcontrol.comwww.healdsburgpestcontrol.comw…

I got my last listing (great listing) from someone who I sent an October card reminding them to change their batteries in the smoke detectors!

I like the dopey recipe cards I get from other places. Some of the people I sent the time change card to actually appreciated and needed the reminder! Haven't YOU ever showed up to church/work, whatever early or late?

I think that every one has a different approach and different personality. As long as we are doing business respectfully, no specific way is 100% correct since people are different.

We get no respect...We have expenses....We work hard....No one appreciates us.....Nobody knows.....You get what you pay for......People who provide the same services as me but do it for less are stupid or dishonest or stupid.....

Now tell me what Profession all of that doesn't apply to?

Maybe the whining and complaining in many many threads about how the ignorant public just doesn't understand the travails of the RE Agent contributes to the lack of respect?
I'm sure the Construction worker, the plumber, the business owner, the waitress, the store clerk, the soldier, the sanitation worker, the mechanic, the (well you get my drift) are all feeling very sympathetic to the difficulty of being an RE Agent and are now feeling much respect for the Profession.....
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Well, actuallly Dunes, I think most people acknowledge how hard a construction worker or a waitress work. Most people know plumbing is a dirty job, and surely in construction and plumbing people KNOW you get what you pay for. Buy a cheap house some day. I don't know what soldiers get a lack of respect nowadays. And none of the professions you mentioned works on commission or for free in many instances.

HEY PEOPLE....KEEP ON CLOSING

GOOD LUCK!

"Today I have to be a photographer, and have a moderately expensive camera to show off my listings well. My job is to also be a marketing expert. By that I mean I must personally design and create an eye catching postcard which I must also use my design and advertising skills to render in my spare time, usually after dinner, using my knowledge of Photoshop or InDesign, which I must purchase. I must then either print these cards myself (extra cost, color tonor and the heavy paper is expensive) or have them printed professio
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, we really got off message here but that is all good..........it is good to vent, especially when you have no other place to do it!

Just want to acknowledge JR for putting everything down point by point regarding what we do as RE agents/brokers. Well put, JR! Nobody points it out and those agents who don't do it ALL, and then some, are really at the bottom of the heap in terms of success at real estate. These are the things that make or break us in today's market and these are the things that take up every waking hour of the day if you are a serious agent.

I really resent the attitude that has come up here time and time again about how "we are nothing special" or that we as real estate agents are not worth a certain percentage of commission on a sale!

How dare you!!!

STOP DENEGRATING OUR PROFESSION!!! This is the reason we are spoken of so negatively by the public! Don't you get it????

We get no respect...We have expenses....We work hard....No one appreciates us.....Nobody knows.....You get what you pay for......People who provide the same services as me but do it for less are stupid or dishonest or stupid.....

Now tell me what Profession all of that doesn't apply to?

Maybe the whining and complaining in many many threads about how the ignorant public just doesn't understand the travails of the RE Agent contributes to the lack of respect?
I'm sure the Construction worker, the plumber, the business owner, the waitress, the store clerk, the soldier, the sanitation worker, the mechanic, the (well you get my drift) are all feeling very sympathetic to the difficulty of being an RE Agent and are now feeling much respect for the Profession.....

Just for the fun of it. How many of you would be spending this much time on a Blog asking this question 4 or 5 years ago? You had so many buyers and sellers that you would go out to take a listing and before your got back to the office you would have 5 offers... What was the Question ? Negative Attitude... L.O.L.

Best

Ron
EXCELLENCE http://www.healdsburgpestcontrol.com http://www.santarosacahomeinspection.com

One more thing Greg, you keep refering to Real Estate agents as a necessary evil. You don't have to use a Realtor to sell your homes. You can put your hammer down and run over to show the home yourself several times a week to buyers that cannot afford it or are just looking.

You can qualify the buyers yourself and refer attorneys and insurance agents and home inspectors and answer all their questions yourself. You can follow up with the attorneys and the mortgage lenders while you are waiting for your subcontractors to show up.

Are the licensed electricians and the licensed plumbers you subcontract on your homes necessary evils too? You probably don't feel that way, because you have a better understanding of what they do. I hope this exchange has helped you understand that Realtors don't just swing open closet doors with a flair!

As a realtor, does it cost you twice as much to sell a $700,000 house as it does a $350,000 house? Do you work twice as long? Do you refuse to list the lower price house because you will only make half as much? It IS the same job no matter the price and should therefore be a flat fee.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but just trying to understand the rationale.

Greg, you haven't offended me at all. In real estate, you need pretty thick skin! It is easier to sell a $350,000 house than a $700,00 house because you have a much larger buyer pool, which should result in less time on the market. You are also dealing with a different clientele who value professionalism and knowledge and don't pick their Realtor because of their hair-do or kind of dog they have.

I am sorry for people who honestly don't realize all the work we agents DO to sell our listings or to sell homes to buyers. This is probably the biggest misconception in our profession. I don't know about anyone else but I work my tail off for my clients. JR mentioned below some of the many things we agents have to do. My marketing budget has to pretty much grow a little each year. Costs go up for printing, designing, mailing, advertising, etc. Not to mention the TIME it takes to keep up with all of the things you have to do to get things done RIGHT! No agent worth his/her salt wants their listings to sit. If we do our job correctly it takes time, money, and lots of sweat. That commission is well-deserved.

I am a lawyer and used to practice law. In that world everything is billable and has a fee. I agree law is a different job but my point is that every profession charges for work done. I spent 30 hours once drafting a memorandum that went up to the State Supreme Court--our clients were billed for every minute. In real estate I might spend 30 hours previewing homes, pulling comps, driving buyers around, writing offers, and then handling all the paperwork during escrow, as well as attending inspections and signings...the list goes on. My pay in the end won't come close to the same money I would make if I billed for all my time.

I will say it again--selling real estate involves legal transactions--personally I wouldn't want to jeopardize my liability as a seller and work with someone who provides a big discount. You can get Nordstrom service or you can go to Walmart...you get what you pay for.

JR

right on the money

All is well.

I have witnessed lawyers actually saying things like ...all you had to do is open the door to the apartment!

WHAT...On my end...I designed and renovated the unit at about 25% OFF. I staged the unit with MY furniture...I and an employee (beside a salesperson) put ads daily (4 or 5 times per day)

I have seen agents talk people into buying homes that are not right for them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Man, I hope those agents write a book on how to do that. I get flak from buyers when I KNOW they're looking at the perfect home for them. They don't put in an offer, lose the house, then spend the next year trying to find it's identical twin.

Sorry Carol, I'm still not convinced. The agents have always split the commissions, paid for advertising, held open houses, paid for auto expenses, etc. But Craigslist, Trulia, Zillow, etc. all offer free advertising. It takes less than an hour on each of these sites to put an ad up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would like to address the issue of how much "easier" it is to market listings now that there is the internet, etc. Years ago, an agent's job was to list and then sell, from a photocopied list. Photos consisited of grainy shots. Today I have to be a photographer, and have a moderately expensive camera to show off my listings well. My job is to also be a marketing expert. By that I mean I must personally design and create an eye catching postcard which I must also use my design and advertising skills to render in my spare time, usually after dinner, using my knowledge of Photoshop or InDesign, which I must purchase. I must then either print these cards myself (extra cost, color tonor and the heavy paper is expensive) or have them printed professionally. In order to be a successful real estate agent I now must also be an author. I must design and produce a newsletter that my SOI and farm don't just toss in the trash as soon as it comes. I must also pay to mail these items, and I guess you've notice that postage has gone up considerably in the past 20 years. I must constantly re-enter my listings in many different websites so that they come up at the top. When I get a price reduction or make another change I have to input it in at least 6 different websites, maybe more. Luckily my firm automatically feeds to most websites, but I can feel the pain of an agent who works for a small firm, because sometimes I sit here after dinner and spend a considerable amount of time just doing internet updates. If I'm really ambitious I have a blog. Speaking of "all the risk", I do all this for absolutely ZERO dollars if the house doesn't sell. There are so many hats I must wear in addition to real estate agent, that an agent from even 25 years ago probably would have had their head explode to think of. I could go on, but it's pointless.

I think 6% for a difficult market as it is now is FAIR compensation. Flat FEE? heck no. On a hot market everything sells, so a 4% commission is OK. Here in the 5 boro I was seeing these lowly - low ball SOB's charging 3 and even 2%. That was ridiculous. Now I have guys that were paying 3% (FOXTONS) 2 years ago coming to me and begging to do their units...NO WAY!!!

I am proud to say I sell 100% of my listings...I do admit that I will not list an over prized under commission property...sorry. I will say that if I list your property I will sell it. As of now, only 2 out of 10 go in the MLS and only 20% will be sold by another agent. Sorry, I wont list a property if they don't listen to me...think what you may...an ego trip...whatever - it is about $$$ and if don't sell I wont collect

Greg makes a point with the effort required to sell homes. At the end of the day there are no calluses on my hands and I have this thing running rather efficiently. That said, Greg would do well to get his broker’s license and sell his own homes, which would clearly save money. The problem I have with builders is that when things were good, there was no hesitation to charge ridiculous amounts for minor changes – even paint colors. Builders could care less about anything when the market was strong, well things have changed. Many of my builder friends used to laugh about the huge profit margins, so I guess you either change or die and many agents as well as builders are finding that out.

I like the idea of commissions and have no issue getting paid for closed deals – the key is stacking the deck in favor of deals closing! I maximize my use of on line assets, use my appraisal experience and data constantly and only deal with reasonable clients. My buyers email me homes that strike a nerve (don’t care how many) and I quickly whittle the list to just those that make sense. With all the data, including birds eye views I can cut to chase quickly. My buyers and I only go the few homes that make sense.

For sellers, I always do a detailed phone interview first. After that I’ll pull everything on the subject (often including a short title to see liens) and prepare essentially a desk top appraisal. I then chat again with them and review this data – if they are reasonable I prep a full packet for their review and email it. If we’re still on the same sheet of music I’ll walk it and tighten up my marketing plan and figure out the best course of action with them.

I’m in data or in the field all day; this is not a complicated business – just like making doughnuts. The key is a system and to stick to it – and that has to be centered on good agent business and “the golden rule”. It’s imperative that you be truthful – even when it hurts. I hear of agents carrying buyers around for weeks in areas all over the place, no wonder you’re going nuts. Same for the ones that take listings and let the sellers dictate things – “oh, they’re mad”, no kidding because you’re wasting yours and their time.

Let’s not make this “profession” out to be more than it is – at the end of the day we’re not doctors, lawyers or anything special. In fact, as a former Army officer it’s crazy to think what I used to have to do for a fraction of what I make now. I’m busy and productive because my clients like my approach, see the value in using me and they are willing to pay for my service.

Sorry Carol, I'm still not convinced. The agents have always split the commissions, paid for advertising, held open houses, paid for auto expenses, etc. But Craigslist, Trulia, Zillow, etc. all offer free advertising. It takes less than an hour on each of these sites to put an ad up.

Yes, my material and labor costs have increased. But I am also the one taking ALL of the risk. The interest costs alone can eat into the small profit margin in a hurry. In many cases, I would LOVE to make 25% of that 6%!

You make my earlier point about agents being a "necessary evil" with your last comment. "There is less incentive to get a higher price if there is a flat fee." We as builders are held hostage knowing that if we don't pay the 6% commission, no one will show the house.

As a realtor, does it cost you twice as much to sell a $700,000 house as it does a $350,000 house? Do you work twice as long? Do you refuse to list the lower price house because you will only make half as much? It IS the same job no matter the price and should therefore be a flat fee.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but just trying to understand the rationale.

The "commission system" may be flawed, but commission and markup are time-honored methods of compensation. I'm sure the rep from the lumber yard puts in the same amount of work whether he sells a builder a few 2x4s or framing for a dozen homes, but somehow, I don't think the rep expects to make the same amount on each sale.
Real estate commissions are actually quite low, as commissions go. Putting aside low-ticket items, every check out an auctioneer? Try buying something at Christies; they want 15-25% "buyer's premium" IN ADDITION to whatever they're getting from the Seller!

To me, the commission system is flawed. Why is it that when houses were selling for 100K 10 years ago (in my part of the country), the agent was fine with a $6000 commision but now that houses are 350K, they want $21,000 for the same amount of work? It seems to me a flat fee would be a better way to go.

Greg, it is not the same job, or the same economy as 10 years ago. Are you paying more for your materials and labor than you did 10 years ago? The listing agent also splits the commission with their broker and the selling agent and their broker, so in essence the agent may be receiving 25% of that fee.

10 years ago the agent put an ad in the newspaper saying New 3BR, 2BA with garage and central air (broker) 555-1212. Now there are all kinds of photos to be uploaded to the MLS and many websites, flyers, just listed cards, virtual tours and all kinds of other marketing materials that have to be created at the agents expense. The agent holds Open Houses that they have to advertise and brokers open houses that they have to cater. The agent must pay dues and desk fees, car insurance, gas and all the other auto expenses to drive around people who end up buying from a friend of a friend.

All fees are negotiable, so you could offer a flat fee, and some do, but it is very rare. There is less incentive to get a higher price if there is a flat fee.

Carol Bromm, SRES, CBR
Licensed Associate Broker

While we have moved somewhat away from the primary questions I am truly enjoy this thread. I have to say that while I agree an or respect the point of view of most I can actually disagree with one factor. Why can an agent make 30+ k for selling a property. I work for extremely wealthy investors that we have found packages for. They have been able to double, tripled even quadruple their investment. Say I find you 20 apartment in manhattan and while the retail price hover around $1100 per square foot (some areas less and some more) and the whole sale price of the same package is $850 I was able to secure this investment at about $550 per foot.

Now the client may have to spend another $200k (10k each) to paint , polish the floors and stage the units properly before placing it in the market. Say I shared 6% commission with another broker and everybody is happy. the asset manager is happy to get it off it's portfolio, the building is happy to get rid of the REO off it's property, the buyer knows he got a fantastic deal and will likely double his investment within 3 years. Heck, they should be having a parade for me. But the issue is that many, many investors want to squeeze the nickel until the buffalo poops (excuse the expression). This is MY TAKE on it...if my fees are too high there is always someone else willing to work for less. Will they be as effective as me, will they be able to get top dollar and will they be able to move the properly in a timeframe that the sellers will be happy (I hope not, that's why I charge what I charge)

If I am selling a 300k home, a 30k commission is high, but if I am selling a 600k + unit 30k plus is absolutely not too much to pay. I too am a contractor. I become very= disillusioned when I perform a project for $50 and after paying labor and material plus overhead I am looking at a mere 10% profit. But then when I get the exclusive and able to quickly sell that $500k property and I am able to collect a 5% commission I no longer care so much about the miniscule profit on my construction. This is the reason I incorporated RE brokerage into my business.

As an agent and an attorney I have struggled with this question for a long time (as one of my friends so eloquently told me, I picked the two professions people "hate" the most...lovely). What I have come to discover is that many people, especially in a market and economy such as the one we are in now, feel that using an agent is not a necessity. They feel that with all the access out there to the internet, MLS databases, free information and free advertising services (likes Craigslist), why should they PAY anyone to handle a transaction for them?

I have to counter these beliefs by saying this: if you were convicted of a crime would you choose to represent yourself in court? I certainly hope not--if you are not a lawyer you do not understand the rules and procedures, the laws, the sentencing guidelines; you do not have access to make "deals" with the prosecutor. Sure, you can read up and learn about a lot of these things, but it is not the same as having an experienced attorney who understands the system standing by your side to represent you.

Similarly, buying or selling a home requires a professional on your side...they are LEGAL TRANSACTIONS with LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS!! Sure, you can sell your home by owner. But what happens if two years down the road the owner discovers a problem and comes after you? As a buyer you don't pay your agent a dime, so why wouldn't you want to work with a professional?

As for speaking badly about fellow colleagues...we all know that there are some people in our industry (as with ANY industry) who are unethical, rude or unprofessional. You can try to avoid these people, but a professional never badmouths another colleague. Leave their fate to karma and continue to be the best agent you can be. It will pay off and your clients will thank you.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me a bit to pay by the hour plus costs. That seems fair. But you can't tell me that ANY agent can justify a $31,000 commission for selling a house. Even at $200/hr., that is 155 hrs! I could see 20 or 30 hrs., but certainly not 100+.

The problem is two fold. Most of what we do we give away for free so the client doesn't understand nor appreciate the value because they don't pay for it. The second problem is that too many people are bad at it and are still able to make a living doing it badly.

You look at TV programs involving real estate agents and they make the job look like nothing more than a tour of homes. They don't show the behind the scenes things and they make it all look easy. The client thinks all we do is plant a sign in the yard and bill them 6% of their nest egg for 20 minutes worth of work.

Of course they hate real estate agents. They aren't shown the actual job of being a Realtor. All they see is the $31,000 commission earned in a 30 minute TV show. How hard is that? Unfortunately, like most programs on TV, that's fiction.

Agents need to start making clients aware of the value that agents really do have, even if it means invoicing them and comparing it to the final commission payment. If agents were to account for time like lawyers do, and send clients reminders of the costs, then subtract those costs from the commission payment, I don't think clients would mind paying their fees.

Of course, the trick to a positive attitude towards agents is finding the best agent to sell your home. If clients did more homework before hiring an agent, then the bad agents would be forced out of business.

Here is my take on it! I have seen plenty of agents who show only their listings, only their companies listings, only show a buyer a few listings and tell them to pick one. I have seen agents talk people into buying homes that are not right for them. We know the guys that say I'll sell your home in 90 days or I will buy it myself, knowing full well they will never buy the home, because the seller will never give up 20% plus a commission to do it. They get their foot in the door with false hopes preying on the misfortunes of others. We once refused to write a contract for a home that should have been condemned. The buyer then bought the home from the listing realtor, who gladly sold the property. While I would have wished the buyer would have listened to us, he did not, and bought a nightmare of problems for his elderly family.Realtors have to tell the truth, investigate problems, find solutions, and build the reputation of being a good realtor.

Frequently , people think realtors make tons of money, drive huge luxury cars and drink martinis all day long.... Like those guys on TV who don't know the first thing about structure , design or quality. We work for our clients, full time and ten some.We know their limitations and respect their skill level, financial resources, family issues etc. We help them make the best choice possible, and safeguard their assets. If repeat business and introductions are important to you, you must be ethical,honest, and resourceful to be a good realtor. I hope the current market flushes out all the bad realtors

Wow, sounds like we have alot in common. As a real estate investor we also get a bad wrap. Even though I built my business on a foundation of honesty, integrity and compassion. All we can do is our best and do good and know that all we do will return to us ten fold. I specialize in purchasing short sales and always look for great realtors to work with.

Crystal Gomez

Trilogy Property Solutions
13636 Ventura Blvd Suite 324
Sherman Oaks CA 91423
818-571-4655 http://www.go.managemyshortsale.com

From a builder/developer point of view, agents are a necessary evil. To get a house on the MLS, you need them. But, in many cases, the agent makes more money on a new house than the builder.

To me, the commission system is flawed. Why is it that when houses were selling for 100K 10 years ago (in my part of the country), the agent was fine with a $6000 commision but now that houses are 350K, they want $21,000 for the same amount of work? It seems to me a flat fee would be a better way to go.

I am not saying agents don't work hard. I know from experience it takes a lot of time with some customers to close the deal. But, it certainly doesn't take 3 1/2 times as long to sell a house now than it did 10 years ago.

Somebody had mentioned in one of their answers about the NAR's role in how Realtors are perceived. Since most of us are required to become a member of the NAR, it seems that this organization should belong to us, not the other way around.
Instead of endlessly repeating the mantra "BUY! BUY! BUY! perhaps it would better serve us if there was an ad campaign which informed the public about what real estate agents actually do.
I am amazed at how little so many people know about what we do.

Perhaps the disrespect shown was earned by those in the Industry who have an RE license but no Professionalism?

This forum is a good example...The comments/advice of many good Agents/Pros (like yourself Hank) are canceled by the Spam, call me, email me, I self-promote cause I'm helping the public, FSBOs suck, those Agents are rip offs, Flat Fee is the creation of the devil comments by RE license holders.....Plus the fact that the Agent designation here is not even any kind of verification the person is actually an Agent...

If you do not oppose the BSers then you basically condone their BS as representative of the Profession IMHO..

Most people base their views on what they see as most have learned that talk is cheap. A good question IMO would be ...(What does the public see in a Forum like this? Do they see something to respect or do they see many Agents disrespecting the Guidelines, each other, the consumer?)

Earning respect means doing more than wondering why you don't receive it and stating it ain't fair.....Earn it!
Respect your Profession enough to stand against the BSers who have earned the disrespect for the Industry that the True Professionals do not deserve.....Stand up, speak up or stop expecting respect from those who see the BSers representing your industry....

There are many many True Professionals in the industry but few actual voices in comparison to the Spammers/BSers that use sites like this as lead generators or spamming fields..
Those BSers even spam other Agents on Active Rain..lol

Give the public something to respect in Forums like this cause I'm thinkin they might appreciate it and that will earn respect....

Dunes

Good point Dunes - if you take care of your biz and clients then you won't have problems with folks respecting you. Act a pro and you'll be treated like one.

Oh - and maybe it's time to push for all the "reality" shows to end - what can possibly be more detremental that that Brave show - Millionaire Listing? Where's a good woodchipper when you need it?

Hank

I hereby officially name this the Rodney Dangerfield thread....."I get no respect"


Respect is earned not given, many Agents have earned it and many have not....

BTW what's up with those younger whippersnappers nowadays and their disrespect for us older whippersnappers? Ungrateful whelps!

Dunes

I just read the answer that Pamela from Texas sent in, and that sums it all up!! You're so right Pamela!!

I would like to say that Alexandra answer was good,because some agents look at their own views and not the client,whether its the buyer or the seller.I have a motto I say, and that is" if you worry about money you will always worry about money, but if you worry about people you will NEVER worry about money"

I've read alot of the comments, and I agree with much of what has been said. We ARE the only "profession" that works strictly on commission. Some people (not all) seem to regard us as just the person to unlock the door for them to get into a home, and not too much else. There is that perception that we make a ton of money, and don't have to do much. People don't realize the time, energy, and yes our own money that we put into getting our name out there, servicing our clients, negotiating for our clients, putting out the fires along the way, and keeping your clients happy. It seems there isn't much respect, and yes maybe if people had to pay a"service fee" they would think of us differently. I've had people ask to see homes, rentals etc.. at the last minute, and then I do my best to accommodate them, only to be stood up. I've noticed that we seem to be on call 24 hours per day! I've received calls at 11:00 pm! Nothing surprises me anymore!! What keeps me going is all the clients that are truly grateful for what you do for them. The ones that KNOW you've worked hard for them, and they let YOU know they know. It really is gratifying when a couple finds their first home, and you've helped them find it, negotiated for them, and been there with them, guiding them and answering their questions along the way, right up to the closing.
I have also seen many realtors that aren't very nice to each other. I guess they consider other agents to be the competition, but really, as others have stated, we need BOTH sides to get a deal done. And, in the big scheme of things, aren't we all just people, and wouldn't everything be a little bit better if we treated others as we would like to be treated? Just seems kind of simple to me.

My business is about my clients and customer service about what they want and need and it's my job to give thenm the most and beest information to make the best decision possible for them and their famillies and that's what I do if I don't know the answer and I don't know all the answers I will find the answer for them and I am honest with them and they respect that. But I usually learn more from them than they learn from me in the long run. Sue CLine ABR<CRS<GRI<SRES suecline.net.

I am surprised about that as well. We do a great job and work all the time with zero or no respect and the public always wants our money. I think the public can not see the effort and time we put in.
Being a Realtor is one job that takes all your effort and time and should be valued. We are finding and selling homes for these people. Show some respect!!!
Brian